Do i absolutely need a dedicated VCA yet?

[Triky1305]

Hey everyone!

Im ordering the DPO this week, and i would really like to order the MMG aswell, but i dont have enough fund for a VCA yet if i do so.
My question is do i need a dedicated VCA yet? pardon my limited knowledge about electricity, but will the output of for example the DPO->MMG->out be too quiet or will it not be audible at all?

Any input, suggestions & schooling very welcome.

Side question: any (max around 150$ish) vca recommendations? sorry if this has been covered many times.

[Matos]

Well, a vca usually works best when you have something to trigger them, like an envelope. You can ping the mmg so the filter acts like an vca of sorts, actually a LPG that will open and close the filter. But you need something to trigger that. The dpo has a strike input for a similar feature, but you would still need a gate or trigger to operate that. Woth a dpo and mmg you would have a great drone Maschine. What else do you have? Based on this question, you may want to explore YouTube and search muffs to get a better idea of cv(control voltage) and how it works. Getting a better idea of how signals flow will give you a better understanding of what you need to make the sounds you want. I know youre excited, but a little more time spent researching and understanding will make your modular journey more fruitful and less frustrating. Good luck!

[thermionicjunky]

Oscillators produce continuous sound. They do not need to be made loud by an amplifier (think deeply about how an amplifier could possibly make an inaudible sound audible.) Generally, VCAs are required in order to silence them, though the DPO and MMG are both capable of gating a continuous VCO signal. This particular VCO/VCF combo should suffice for a brief period of experimentation, but your next purchases should probably be a VCA (or lowpass gate) and some kind of envelope generator/function generator/control voltage source.

[thermionicjunky]

And though I only have a little bit of Eurorack, I am very interested in buying (or building) the Intellijel uVCA. It may be the most versatile and it provides two high-quality units for near $150. The Makenoise Optomix is a great LPG if you like them.

[archerofloaf]

I love my uVCA. Love the versatility. I'll definitely be picking up the uVCAII when it's time to add another VCA to my system.

[bar|none]

DPO is gonna blow your mind.

But here is the trio you want to think about.

MakeNoise DPO - oscillator
MakeNoise Function - Envelope (MADE for the DPO)
VCA - whatever

You don't need the filter yet.

Once you've gone through that playground, add the filter.

IMO, filter comes after a VCA. Filter is only interesting when a VCA is driving it and envelope driving VCA.

search for "you can never have enough vcas" and you will find your answer.

[causticlogic]

Nothing is necessary except a power source. Certain module types only become necessities when one wants to achieve a particular result.

For example, you could do some interesting stuff with just a Polivoks VCF and a A-143-1.
Obviously the scope of things that could be accomplished is narrow, but the scope will expand as more capability can be afforded.

Learn the nuances of what you have in the meantime to gain the answer to what you want to achieve and then you will know whether the next module you'll be after will be a VCA.

[Count Edlington]

If you don't know what a VCA does, the DPO is gonna be a steep learning curve for you. VCA's are like a gate that opens and closes to let the sound through. You plug the audio into the VCA input and a CV into the CV in (this CV controls the audio signal volume). Like an automated volume knob, so with no VCA then you have a constant sound.

[jnlkrt]

how about modulation, e.g. envelope generation? and how are you going to control/play your modular?

[Spiked Lunch]

I say get the DPO and MMG if you want. You'll be able to make sounds. However, if you can afford a Function too, you'll be able to have a lot more fun.

The strike inputs can be controlled by the Function as can the wavefolder on the DPO and the MMG cut of Fq which will allow you to alter dynamics - kinda like a VCA.

[DonKartofflo]

I have a furthrrr generator which is similar to the DPO and let me be honest, I would go for a vca and mod source before buying a filter. the DPO is not your average vco. It can produce both very dull signals and very harsh sounds in a continously shapeably sonic environment.
I think you should do a little more research because it seems you are not familiar with the featureset of the DPO.

[Triky1305]

Thanks for all the replys

I do understand how CV works, i dont have trouble understanding the dpo either. But i wasnt sure if the outputs of the modules were too quiet if i didnt have a VCA.
ive been working with u-he bazille for a little over a year.

(http://music-society.net/gallery/1_28_0 ... 08_21.jpeg)

So im not entirely new to the signal flow in modular systems.
but ive only just gone analog, and i dont know, i just thought the signal coming out of an analog VCO needed to be amplified at some point.

Im aiming for expert-sleepers ES3 next month so i'd be happy to just have a nice drone machine until may.
thanks for the VCA suggestions too!

[causticlogic]

Actually, modular level audio is louder than line level. You'll likely need to amplify any external sources coming into it and limit the levels coming out of it.

[causticlogic]

Also, you still seem to be a little confused about VCAs.
A VCA is kind of like a faucet. Without one in the signal path, audio is constant. Add in a VCA, and you have the ability to control the level of the audio coming through the faucet kind of like a voltage-controlled volume. That's a really general way of describing it anyway...

[Triky1305]

Oh yeah ofcourse.
Makes sense as on u-he bazille the first envelope is by default controlling VCA 1's volume, but as it is standard i never gave it much thought.
A lot of bricks just fell into place for me.
But how does the cv in on a vca know when to start the envelope?
Lets say i just want to play little melodies with my modular, would it then be Pitch CV->osc pitch, osc->VCA and then gateCV->envelope->VCA CV input?
Just asking to make sure i understand correctly.

Anyway i still think im gonna get DPO and MMG, but i think ill get Funktion too on the same order, would force me to try and make cool drones and id like to get better at that anyway.
Im very intriqued by these modules so i think ill just get them and see where that takes me, maybe ill find out i need a vca.

Again thanks alot!

[Triky1305]

Or maybe as Bar|none suggested

Dpo
Funktion
VCA

I think your right that combo does look alot more versatile.
i will also be able to borrow a filter from a friend in a little while so i might go with that combination.

Any last thoughts before i do something stupid and expensive and fun?

[felixer]

Any last thoughts before i do something stupid and expensive and fun?

do not buy a dpo if you can't also afford some other modules. in fact, don't buy any gear yet, but study a bit more to get an insight into how modular synthesis works. you can make patches without a vca just like some people can make music with a pair of spoons, but usually you need an assortment of different things: vco, vcf (if you get the self-resonating type it can double as a sine vco), vca and most importantly cv generators/modulators: env, lfo, pitch cv and gate/triggers (from sq or keyboard or random source) etc ...
if you want to start you could do worse than get a doepfer dark energy or the pittsburgh foundation or some other basic, but complete set. after working with that for a while you can add specialized modules like dpo. nothing will be wasted with that original purchase and you will have a better idea what you want/need.
check your mail ...

[causticlogic]

But how does the cv in on a vca know when to start the envelope?
Lets say i just want to play little melodies with my modular, would it then be Pitch CV->osc pitch, osc->VCA and then gateCV->envelope->VCA CV input?
Just asking to make sure i understand correctly.

As you state in your next sentence, the envelope is controlling the VCA, and a gate (or trigger) CV is starting the envelope, so the gate starts the envelope which opens the VCA based on the shape of the envelope and the settings of the VCA.
You have the basic idea, you just need to think over how CV works in the patch.

[rjungemann]

VCA = Voltage Controlled Attenuator, not Voltage Controlled Amplifier. Many can amplify, but all can lower amplitude of signals.

I got the acronym wrong when I first started....

Generally you would have a Midi-CV module that outputs pitch CV and gate. The pitch CV would control your VCO. The gate CV would control two envelopes, one for your VCA, one for your filter. The VCO would go through the filter, then the VCA.

But that is just a basic patch, you can omit the VCA and filter and one of the envelopes, and just have a single envelope going into an LPG. Or you can swap the order of the VCA and filter. Or....

Edit: Bazille is awesome, I hear 1.0 is on the way :¬)

[Triky1305]

@Felixer
Appreciate your advice but mind you ive been working on this virtual modular for just over a year, the reason im going analog is for new possibilities
and better sound, i understand u-he bazille fully and love to play with it. So im not entirely new to modular synthesis, just new to analog modular.
Since i didnt have to patch gates from a trigger to envelopes and envelopes to a vca and such, i just had to get it clarified.
But i get where your coming from, and its nice that you look out for newbies!

u-he bazille:


@Causticlogic
Thanks!

[felixer]

good but virtual/simulation is not 'the real thing'. you'll find that 'analog modular' (even if the modules themselves are sometimes digital) will give you richer sounds mainly because you can patch 'm in more interesting ways. it will never 'run out of gas' if you pile up high-speed modulation. although you might temporarely run out of patchcables . and i still haven't heard the subtle effects of different filters set close to self-res from software. so even a basic set can give you more exiting sounds then you might expect on paper. that's also why it takes more time to really get into each module ...
happy exploring

[grillo]

Personally i would get a vca, but ymmv. and that's the beauty of modular after all, you can build your own system any way you like it. So go for it and then you'll figure out what you need to add to it later.

btw that u-he modular synth looks cool, is it out yet?

[Triky1305]

The beta is out, the official release is in may i think, the open beta has been going on for a _long_ time.

you can get the beta here: http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=258683

its a wonderfull toy. (: