Slide Pots for 5U/MU - Opinions Please

[dslocum]

I'm torn...

I'd like to offer the best 5U/MU functions in modules that seriously justify their existence in a large format rack, but I keep running against the limits of round knobs and the graphics they require. This is especially troublesome where obvious functions should be a straight linear graphic, but old skool protocol dictates round knobs.

So... In all - Are slide pots tabu? or are 5U/MU folks willing to accept them? And in what circumstances?

I'd like some feedback on this, as I'd like to offer several modules that (in my mind) would seriously benefit from slide pot interfaces.

Who has a problem? Who could be OK with it? What are your insights please?

Maybe this has been discussed before - If so, please feel free to send me a link. Thanks...

[jupiter8]

Maybe this has been discussed before - If so, please feel free to send me a link. Thanks...

http://muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 10&start=0

[Christopher W.]

I said in that thread that I'm against sliders, and I generally am.

However, if the rest of the module was fantastic I am not going to say no to a design just because it incorporates something that isn't a pot. It's preference in my case, not dogma.

[dslocum]

Maybe this has been discussed before - If so, please feel free to send me a link. Thanks...

http://muffwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 10&start=0

Thanks jupiter8 !

[BKN7000]

I was thinking... based on experience with both tight old sliders on my Roland SH-2 vs. newish but used slippery sliders such as on my A&H mixer, I had these thoughts...

When you need to fine tune a value on a slider, sometimes it's too easy to slip and change the value too much. For some reason I find it easier to make small adjustments on a knob (especially bigger knobs). Maybe it has something to do with the fact that there is a fixed mounting point on a knob, whereas on the slider, the mounting point is always moving. It's usually more of a problem on sliders with a lot of friction like on my older SH-2. It's less of an issue with the mixer. I guess it depends.

Perhaps also there's a usability difference between vertically mounted sliders vs. laterally mounted ones. I've never really used vertically mounted ones, but if I try to imagine it I think I would have to press my middle finger against the faceplate to keep my thumb and index finger steady on the slider grip.

And on that note, I wonder what long time owners of Arp 2600s think... since those use vertically mounted sliders.

[dslocum]

BKN700,
I agree, and think you are not alone in your assessment. A rotary pot has a fixed "center" that the human body can deal with more readily, whereas the slider is not as ergo friendly. A slider seems to need a finger on the front panel as you describe. I've seen a few vintage synths in my time where it was obvious that the middle finger was wearing away at the front panel paint finish.

Yet, this doesn't stop me from asking the question I originally proposed - If it makes sense to use sliders, is it OK?

[robotmakers]

I think sliders are an excellent user interface to explore. There are certainly functions which can be represented by a row of sliders more intuitively than a row of knobs. Clearly, the graphic equalizer and audio mixer come to mind. If you're glancing at a piece of equipment from some distance, the setting of a slider would also be easier to determine than the setting of a knob, an advantage in some cases.

From another point of view, variation (in some sort of alignment of control and function) is a key to good ergonomic user interface design. That's why in a car you'll find all sorts of different push buttons, knobs and sliders of all different colors and shapes for different functions. In WWII, crashes caused by pilot error were greatly reduced when differentiable controls replaced confusing cockpit designs. It makes sense and it's one reason why I think modules designed with grids of identical knobs and jacks in identical positions regardless of function represent a low point in user interface design for performance musical instruments. Just my opinion.

So slide away! I'd be very interested to see what you come up with.

-Roger

[BKN7000]

From just a user's point of view, apart from those minor usability issues I can't see why not. They do seem pretty cool on the Arp 2600. Also on the Roland System 700.

[Dave Peck]

For some applications I think they are a much better choice than a knob. Things like analog sequencer steps, fixed filter banks, etc.

Modcan B series makes good use of them.

[BKN7000]

Oh yeah... the old Analogue Solutions Oberkorn also used sliders.

[NV]

I think it really depends on the throw distance of the slider and the parameter it's adjusting. For example, the ModCan sequencer uses about 45mm throw sliders that go from 0 up to 5 volts. In my opinion, 1v/oct sequencer adjustments are far too precise to incorporate a slider of only 45mm throw over a 5V range. If the ModCan had range adjustment switches so you could restrict each row to a 1V/2V/5V range then it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue, or if it was some gigantic beast with 100mm throws for that matter.

Sliders can be a perfect fit for some applications however, and the DoubleDeka is a great example of that. You don't really need to be able to make millivolt adjustments with something like the DoubleDeka or with things like filter resonance or slew rate, whereas with a sequencer running into a 1v/oct input a difference of 0.01V can actually matter.

[Dave Peck]

I think it really depends on the throw distance of the slider and the parameter it's adjusting. .......with a sequencer running into a 1v/oct input a difference of 0.01V can actually matter.

Ah, good point. I retract my comment regarding analog sequencers. If the control is doing something like adjusting pitch, it's probably best done with a knob. Other than that, sliders may be good for some applications that could benefit from some visual indications, like fixed filter band settings or mixer levels.

[bwhittington]

Count me in the pro-sliding-pot camp. Spice it up as function dictates.

Cheers,
Brian

[megaohm]

I think sliders are an excellent user interface to explore. There are certainly functions which can be represented by a row of sliders more intuitively than a row of knobs. Clearly, the graphic equalizer and audio mixer come to mind. If you're glancing at a piece of equipment from some distance, the setting of a slider would also be easier to determine than the setting of a knob, an advantage in some cases.

From another point of view, variation (in some sort of alignment of control and function) is a key to good ergonomic user interface design. That's why in a car you'll find all sorts of different push buttons, knobs and sliders of all different colors and shapes for different functions. In WWII, crashes caused by pilot error were greatly reduced when differentiable controls replaced confusing cockpit designs. It makes sense and it's one reason why I think modules designed with grids of identical knobs and jacks in identical positions regardless of function represent a low point in user interface design for performance musical instruments. Just my opinion.

So slide away! I'd be very interested to see what you come up with.

-Roger

I agree whole heartedly with robotmaker's entire post.
If it is good fit for the function of the module then go for it.

[Just me]

As a former 2600 owner, I have no real problems with sliders. In some ways, I really like them. (Aesthetically they are moe pleasing to me.) What I do not like about them is they get dirty quickly. When you clean them, if you don't re lube them, they get too stiff to use. I like them to have LOOONNNGG travel. They are the cats ass on things like resonance on a filter to make it 'playable'. They make mixers a ton easier to use. And if your group a mess of them close, you can pretty equally control many things all at the same time. I wish my mixer and distibutor modules used sliders instead of rotary pots. That is a good application for 4 or 6 of them very close to each other with small heads and medium travel so you can fool with the 'mix' on the fly and be able to see what you've done.

[robotmakers]

BTW, Mr. megaohm, I wish I had an entire synth with modules as beautifully designed as the ones you offer! Very very nicely thought out interfaces!

-Roger

[zapp550]

They are the cats ass on things like resonance on a filter to make it 'playable'.

The only slider on my odyssey that's all gunked up

[Synesthesia]

pro slider as well !

currently looking at this guy !

http://www.bridechamber.com/F_DoubleDeka.html

[Ranxerox]

I too would be in favour of sliders in place of knobs wherever function - or even aesthetics - dictates. Sliders are cool.

Edit: Not sure about 60mm mixer-style faders though. The large caps would be annoying and unergonomic on a vertical surface. They also tend to take up a fair bit of room beneath the panel.

ARP-style sliders would be terrific, like on the Oddy only less breakable. As long as they're not too stiff- you want them to be smooth, but you also want them to stay put if you lightly brush them by accident.

I agree with comments about the relative precision of rotary controls, but this would be application-led rather than an objection to sliders per se. Sliders won't accumulate nearly so much dust and dirt if they are vertical.

[doctorvague]

I think it really depends on the throw distance of the slider and the parameter it's adjusting. For example, the ModCan sequencer uses about 45mm throw sliders that go from 0 up to 5 volts. In my opinion, 1v/oct sequencer adjustments are far too precise to incorporate a slider of only 45mm throw over a 5V range. If the ModCan had range adjustment switches so you could restrict each row to a 1V/2V/5V range then it wouldn't be nearly as much of an issue, or if it was some gigantic beast with 100mm throws for that matter.

Sliders can be a perfect fit for some applications however, and the DoubleDeka is a great example of that. You don't really need to be able to make millivolt adjustments with something like the DoubleDeka or with things like filter resonance or slew rate, whereas with a sequencer running into a 1v/oct input a difference of 0.01V can actually matter.

Almost exactly what I would have said, even using the same example (Modcan Sequencer).
EDIT: I wanted to add it was literally impossible in some cases to to tune it to an exact note. You'd hit above and below but the slider just didn't have enough resolution to hit it exactly sometimes. I don't recall ever having that much problem with a knob- it might be really touchy but you can get there.

[emdot_ambient]

I think it really depends on the throw distance of the slider and the parameter it's adjusting...

Almost exactly what I would have said, even using the same example(Modcan Sequencer)...

Same here, with a few added observations:

I own 2 ARP Axxes and one ARP Sequencer. They use fairly small sliders, nowhere near as long as the typical mixer's, and I can vouch for their usefulness from a visual point of view. One quick glance and you know exactly what's going on in the patch.

The sequencer also has a dual CV range: the quantized outputs are 0-3v, while the unquantized outputs are 0-5v. The former is dead easy to get the tuning you want (hey, it's quantized and it's a limited range), with the former is incredibly difficult to get exact pitches. But visually it's awesome and I really dislike the rotary knob solution of most sequencers because it's too hard to take in the pitch settings at a glance.

Also, unlike the Oddy, the Axxe doesn't have a pitch slider. Since it's only 1 oscillator, it uses a +2 oct/+0 oct/-2oct switch to adjust the pitch range, and a pitch knob to adjust fine tuning. This works incredibly well.

On the Axxe's filter, I really like the sliders: Frequency and Resonance right next to each other. It's become second nature for me to think in terms of their visual relationship when programming sounds. Rotary knobs aren't too bad for this, but still I prefer sliders.

So, it really depends on what the parameter is that's being adjusted.

Now the bad stuff:

Old sliders are a nightmare. Old pots are annoying, but can easily be fixed. Old sliders not so much (or at least not with a lot of trouble). After 33 years of owning my first Axxe, I've attempted to refurbish its sliders by giving them a good cleaning (the bath method, not actually pulling them off the PCB and tearing them apart). The results are mixed. They work much better...but they still stick when you first move them, making fine adjustments very difficult.

Also, for the DIYers out there, is it just me or are sliders just a real pain? I've had a hard time finding sliders that fit what I'd like to do. And, then there's the issue of physically mounting them. The ones I have purchased have mounting screw holes, but the shafts on them are so long that I'm going to have to build a bracket to mount the sliders away from the front panel. Then there's the issue of finding slider caps that fit the style of slider I've purchased...mouser listed some that supposedly fit the sliders I got, but THEY DON'T FIT! I've had to order individual caps of various styles to find any that do fit, and they don't necessarily look all that great.

Then there's the space issue. I've attempted to design modules using sliders on several ocassions, and still have several modules in my pile that would be pretty nice with sliders, but every time I look into it, they just take up too much space. True, running a bunch of them side by side will save you a bunch of horizontal space, but vertically you're losing a lot. So in the end I'm not so sure how practical they are in a modular system.

...so, I like sliders and want to use them, but they seem a bit of a pain and I haven't convinced myself it's worth the effort.

OTOH, I love the Double Dekka design. They make a lot of sense there.

[spinach_pizza]

Not a slide pot at all, of course, but I wish there were more modules with joysticks. You get the visual feedback of a slide pot with the ability to use one controller for two modulations. they would be especially cool with RGB leds on the tips. 8_)

[emdot_ambient]

Joysticks are too expensive to be used in place of pots or sliders. They make more sense in a modular system as non-dedicated controllers...i.e., you plug what you want into them.

I bought 2 nice ones, though, for a long-range project. Slowly getting all the stuff for that one...kind of a modern day EMS (not an emulation). Just not sure on the matrix patching...looking for options there.......maybe I should use sliders?

[spinach_pizza]

They make more sense in a modular system as non-dedicated controllers...i.e., you plug what you want into them.

yeah, that's what I had in mind.

[Just me]

Hobby shops were a great source of joysticks. When the frequencies changed and obsoleted so may old radios, there was a gold mine of high quality pots. (Futaba, Kraft, etc.) Some even have zero center pots!