Has anyone tried to use modular sequencers for real-time sequencing of pop song structures? Mainly the issue is that you need at least three different patterns of about 4 bars each to be able to do a typical verse/chorus/bridge combination for a complete song. For basslines, maybe only two patterns are needed sometimes.
Is this possible with modular sequencers? Of course it's much easier to do this on a groovebox or MPC machines, but I was just curious if anyone ever tries it with modular, particularly the Dotcom Q119, Q960, or other similar sequencers.
Modular sequencing for pop songs
It is very much possible, though it's a lot of real estate to use for a set-it-and-forget-it series of notes. It makes more sense if you're doing real-time control and interaction and maybe some non-deterministic stage selection.
But a quantized sequencer and some sequential switches can be used to achieve these results, absolutely.
But a quantized sequencer and some sequential switches can be used to achieve these results, absolutely.
It's possible, but if that's what you're going for I would say the "traditional" modular sequencers are going to turn the process into more of an academic exercise and less of a practical endeavor.
If your interest is in sequencing more traditional pop song structures I would say go for something along the lines of dude's suggestion, an independent sequencer like a Cirklon or Elektron with a MIDI-CV converter (or CV breakout), or a software sequencer with Silent Way or MIDI-CV conversion. You should be able to easily and efficiently bang out a more involved song structure with any of those options.
If it's more of an academic thing you could accomplish this using a choice selection of sequencers, sequential switches, and clock divisions. You'll probably need a handful of each, and modules like the Moon Modular 564 and 554 would definitely help.
If your interest is in sequencing more traditional pop song structures I would say go for something along the lines of dude's suggestion, an independent sequencer like a Cirklon or Elektron with a MIDI-CV converter (or CV breakout), or a software sequencer with Silent Way or MIDI-CV conversion. You should be able to easily and efficiently bang out a more involved song structure with any of those options.
If it's more of an academic thing you could accomplish this using a choice selection of sequencers, sequential switches, and clock divisions. You'll probably need a handful of each, and modules like the Moon Modular 564 and 554 would definitely help.
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drewtoothpaste
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1. Sequencer w/steps that transpose well (root/4th/5th/oct) added to keyboard CV, sent into oscillators.
2. Record each of your basslines/sequences for the whole song and use DAW to mute/unmute them throughout the song.
3. Record the CV from your analog sequencers into DAW, edit digitally, and output the CVs back into the synth.
4. Get a Juno 60 and clock the arpeggiator from your modular/DAW. If you don't have a Juno 60, buy one.
2. Record each of your basslines/sequences for the whole song and use DAW to mute/unmute them throughout the song.
3. Record the CV from your analog sequencers into DAW, edit digitally, and output the CVs back into the synth.
4. Get a Juno 60 and clock the arpeggiator from your modular/DAW. If you don't have a Juno 60, buy one.
If I do it non-deterministic and do stage switching in real time, is there a separate switch module to use? Sorry I'm new to modular not sure what sequential switches means.ach_gott wrote:It is very much possible, though it's a lot of real estate to use for a set-it-and-forget-it series of notes. It makes more sense if you're doing real-time control and interaction and maybe some non-deterministic stage selection.
But a quantized sequencer and some sequential switches can be used to achieve these results, absolutely.
I don't see the Modcan 72 on their website. Is there a page for it somewhere?dude wrote:since you are in 5u maybe consider the upcoming modcan 72 touch sequencer. it can absolutely do exactly what you are after and all within one module. even has memory. should be out in a few months.
Thanks. I'm kind of looking for something in between an academic thing and the obvious MIDI/arpeggiator/transposing solutions. The practical solutions in as great as they are don't really break any new ground as far as modular is concerned, but I do appreciate the feedback on those too since it's very good information.NV wrote: If it's more of an academic thing you could accomplish this using a choice selection of sequencers, sequential switches, and clock divisions. You'll probably need a handful of each, and modules like the Moon Modular 564 and 554 would definitely help.
I think the Moon 564 and 554 just answered my previous question about sequential switches. Thanks!
Yep, them's those. There are various other things, too. If you're up for some DIY the CGS line has the most interesting stuff (panels @ Bridechamber, parts kits & custom builds @ Sonic Workshop). But most of these require a lot of wiring and basic schematic skills. I still triple check everything when wiring each and every switch and I'm getting fairly bored with the builds.BKN7000 wrote: If I do it non-deterministic and do stage switching in real time, is there a separate switch module to use? Sorry I'm new to modular not sure what sequential switches means.
I think the Moon 564 and 554 just answered my previous question about sequential switches. Thanks!
There's a thread around here somewhere. It's sort of a panel-mounted Palm Pilot sequencer with CV controls. Mighty cool, if not my kind of interface.since you are in 5u maybe consider the upcoming modcan 72 touch sequencer. it can absolutely do exactly what you are after and all within one module. even has memory. should be out in a few months.
I don't see the Modcan 72 on their website. Is there a page for it somewhere?
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doctorvague
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If you're strictly after a modular solution, then this doesn't apply. If you're OK with using a computer for sequencing then I'd highly recommend Numerology (Mac only). I don't know of a comparable Windows product.
Another solution would be something like a FutureRetro Mobius - a hardware sequencer that can store sequence memory. Hmm, I just happen to have one for sale.
A member here 'Clockgate' aka 'justwaving' on Youtube has done some amazing complex sequencing of classical style pieces. He uses multiple Oberkorn sequencers.
http://www.youtube.com/user/justwaving
Another member that does a lot of good sequencing is Attorks. He uses a Doepfer Maq 16 among others IIRC. It's not pop per se but it's quite melodic stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/user/attorks
Ed Buller does some great sequencing too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btAKJyspwIM
Amongst others!
Another solution would be something like a FutureRetro Mobius - a hardware sequencer that can store sequence memory. Hmm, I just happen to have one for sale.
A member here 'Clockgate' aka 'justwaving' on Youtube has done some amazing complex sequencing of classical style pieces. He uses multiple Oberkorn sequencers.
http://www.youtube.com/user/justwaving
Another member that does a lot of good sequencing is Attorks. He uses a Doepfer Maq 16 among others IIRC. It's not pop per se but it's quite melodic stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/user/attorks
Ed Buller does some great sequencing too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btAKJyspwIM
Amongst others!
The heyday of sequenced pop followed the advent of digital storage sequencers, such as the Roland MC-8. I don't think the modular shift-register type sequencers ever really lent themselves to traditional songwriting, unless complemented by a lot of punch-ins and tape splicing.
However, I imagine it could be done. Some ideas that may have occurred already:
-Obviously, the more rows you have available the better; two sequencers would tend to be a lot preferable to one.
-Employ a bit of inventive gate-sequencing to maximise the contribution of each available stage to the song structure (i.e. by introducing rests).
-Use clock dividers or synced pulse LFOs to generate timing subdivisions and run the clock at a slower overall rate (e.g. 1:4 or 1:2 rather than 1:16). A gate combiner is then needed; I use a passive mult, but this is not recommended in all cases.
-A sequential switch is obviously essential, but of more use if you can trigger it from an individual sequencer stage output. The M564 is good because it can 'count' up to 8 triggers (e.g. bars) before switching to the next input.
-Program your melodies in such a way that adjacent rows can 'breed' harmonically compatible variations together via sequential switching. Interlocking repitions (e.g. even vs. odd-numbered) can also add interest even to fairly basic melodies.
-Buffered mults help to avoid headaches and insanity due to v/oct voltage 'droop', for example when you decide to route your pitch CV to an additional oscillator.
-Some sort of unity-gain mixing would be needed if you wanted to do switched transpositions by adding DC voltage (unless you already have a quantizer).
(Edited for clarity)
However, I imagine it could be done. Some ideas that may have occurred already:
-Obviously, the more rows you have available the better; two sequencers would tend to be a lot preferable to one.
-Employ a bit of inventive gate-sequencing to maximise the contribution of each available stage to the song structure (i.e. by introducing rests).
-Use clock dividers or synced pulse LFOs to generate timing subdivisions and run the clock at a slower overall rate (e.g. 1:4 or 1:2 rather than 1:16). A gate combiner is then needed; I use a passive mult, but this is not recommended in all cases.
-A sequential switch is obviously essential, but of more use if you can trigger it from an individual sequencer stage output. The M564 is good because it can 'count' up to 8 triggers (e.g. bars) before switching to the next input.
-Program your melodies in such a way that adjacent rows can 'breed' harmonically compatible variations together via sequential switching. Interlocking repitions (e.g. even vs. odd-numbered) can also add interest even to fairly basic melodies.
-Buffered mults help to avoid headaches and insanity due to v/oct voltage 'droop', for example when you decide to route your pitch CV to an additional oscillator.
-Some sort of unity-gain mixing would be needed if you wanted to do switched transpositions by adding DC voltage (unless you already have a quantizer).
(Edited for clarity)
Would it be possible to use two sequencers -- one of them for the three 1-bar patterns (verse, chorus, bridge), and then use the second sequencer for stages? Like, if each of the steps in sequencer 2 controls the pattern that plays? Granted that you could only achieve very basic basslines, it could still provide some varation.
If that's possible, maybe each of the steps in sequencer 1 can even send to an arpeggiator or just use a sync'd LFO to add more complexity (simulating phrases).
Something like this:
By the way I just found that Modcan 72 touch sequencer post right on this board. Doh. Didnt think to check right here. Not necessarily my cup of tea though, but very innovative.
If that's possible, maybe each of the steps in sequencer 1 can even send to an arpeggiator or just use a sync'd LFO to add more complexity (simulating phrases).
Something like this:
By the way I just found that Modcan 72 touch sequencer post right on this board. Doh. Didnt think to check right here. Not necessarily my cup of tea though, but very innovative.
What you have illustrated wouldn't work. What you actually want is a device which will let you patch each row's CV into a separate input and alternate between them at its output when it receives a trigger pulse. This is called a 'sequential switch'.
You also want the sequential switch to wait until it receives a pre-determined number of pulses before alternating, which is how you govern the number of repeats, using a separate knob for each input.
It's called the M564, and it looks like this:
You also need a sequencer that can generate a pulse once it repeats a row - an 'end of row pulse' in other words. I don't think the Q119 does this. The Q960 does, however, as it has separate gate outs for each stage - just patch the stage 1 gate into the M564's shift input, and voila - one pulse per row repeat.
You also want the sequential switch to wait until it receives a pre-determined number of pulses before alternating, which is how you govern the number of repeats, using a separate knob for each input.
It's called the M564, and it looks like this:
You also need a sequencer that can generate a pulse once it repeats a row - an 'end of row pulse' in other words. I don't think the Q119 does this. The Q960 does, however, as it has separate gate outs for each stage - just patch the stage 1 gate into the M564's shift input, and voila - one pulse per row repeat.
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synthmaker
- Mr Modcan
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- Location: Toronto
You can see the preliminary videos for the
Modcan 72B Sequencer here.
viewtopic.php?t=31549
At the suggestion of other wigglers I have improved a lot of the features since the videos were done including:
1/Quantize "OFF" option in the scale quantize selection
2/New section that lets you design up to 18 of your own quantize scales
and store it in memory (semitones only
no microtonal scales in case you were going to ask).
3/Made it possible to select different quantize scale for each of the 4 rows
3/Added a keyboard screen for entering names of songs and scales
4/Improved CV section to include the CV destination assignment to
Pitch,Note length, Gate Duration and Slew Amount.
CV amount and CV offset is configurable for each parameter and row independently with both positive and negative amounts.
Bruce
Modcan 72B Sequencer here.
viewtopic.php?t=31549
At the suggestion of other wigglers I have improved a lot of the features since the videos were done including:
1/Quantize "OFF" option in the scale quantize selection
2/New section that lets you design up to 18 of your own quantize scales
and store it in memory (semitones only
no microtonal scales in case you were going to ask).
3/Made it possible to select different quantize scale for each of the 4 rows
3/Added a keyboard screen for entering names of songs and scales
4/Improved CV section to include the CV destination assignment to
Pitch,Note length, Gate Duration and Slew Amount.
CV amount and CV offset is configurable for each parameter and row independently with both positive and negative amounts.
Bruce
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sandyb
you could use the "done output" on the q119 to do this i think (it's a while since i owned my one)Ranxerox wrote:...
You also need a sequencer that can generate a pulse once it repeats a row - an 'end of row pulse' in other words. I don't think the Q119 does this. The Q960 does, however, as it has separate gate outs for each stage - just patch the stage 1 gate into the M564's shift input, and voila - one pulse per row repeat.
it puts out a pulse at the end of the sequence so in 3x8 mode would do the job fine.
Oh yeah - I wondered about that. For some reason I thought it was more like the ninth 'reset' stage on the Q960, but now I see. Actually, the random and ping-pong modes would also squeeze a bit more melodic variety from the Q119 for pop purposes.sandyb wrote:you could use the "done output" on the q119 to do this i think (it's a while since i owned my one)Ranxerox wrote:...
You also need a sequencer that can generate a pulse once it repeats a row - an 'end of row pulse' in other words. I don't think the Q119 does this...
it puts out a pulse at the end of the sequence so in 3x8 mode would do the job fine.
Jeez I'm reading up on all the Dotcom modules for sequencing as well as Moon Modular and it's getting a little overwhelming. I'm still a ways from actually purchasing any sequencer gear, but this is kind of nuts. Q119 vs. Q960, additional modules like the Q171, Q172, Q125, Moon M563 vs. M563V2 vs. M568, M564, M554. Where the heck do I start? Is there some kind of modular sequencer review blog for 5U systems that I can read up on?
I guess ideally I would start with a sequencer system tailored to my needs that I can build on throughout the year... The M569 looks pretty sick. I wonder if I can cut to the chase by getting that instead of the Q119/Q960. Still needs supplementary modules like quantizer and seq switch stuff, and God knows what else. Do I need a clock?
Is there a checklist or guide of some sort that can help with this?
--sequencer
--quantizer bank
--quantizer aid
--seq. switch
--more?
I guess ideally I would start with a sequencer system tailored to my needs that I can build on throughout the year... The M569 looks pretty sick. I wonder if I can cut to the chase by getting that instead of the Q119/Q960. Still needs supplementary modules like quantizer and seq switch stuff, and God knows what else. Do I need a clock?
Is there a checklist or guide of some sort that can help with this?
--sequencer
--quantizer bank
--quantizer aid
--seq. switch
--more?
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sduck
- experimental use of gravity
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Yes, it's a bit overwhelming - but you're asking for a lot from hardware sequencers.
I'm wondering about the practical uses for such a specifically designed setup. Sure, for a couple of thousand dollars you could have enough sequencing power to play a single line in a pop song structure. Bass line, melody, chord type arpeggios - pick one. For a live situation this would be - what? One song, and then you'd need to spend 15 minutes retuning the thing for the next song. For studio situations it would be total overkill, as you could just do the various parts separately and then stitch them together.
So for all the practical applications I can think of, which granted is probably fairly limited, you'd be far better served with just a laptop running whatever sequencing software you prefer, and a midi to cv converter. Sure, there wouldn't be nearly as many cool blinky lights, but it would work for more situations, and be fast and reliable.
I'm wondering about the practical uses for such a specifically designed setup. Sure, for a couple of thousand dollars you could have enough sequencing power to play a single line in a pop song structure. Bass line, melody, chord type arpeggios - pick one. For a live situation this would be - what? One song, and then you'd need to spend 15 minutes retuning the thing for the next song. For studio situations it would be total overkill, as you could just do the various parts separately and then stitch them together.
So for all the practical applications I can think of, which granted is probably fairly limited, you'd be far better served with just a laptop running whatever sequencing software you prefer, and a midi to cv converter. Sure, there wouldn't be nearly as many cool blinky lights, but it would work for more situations, and be fast and reliable.
Very good point. I think this is staring to feel like I wouldn't use this for live performance, but rather maybe more for real-time composition and experimentation. Unless I scratch the idea entirely and just use a MIDI sequencer to compose. But that's not as much fun in terms of exploration.
What I like most about analog style sequencers is that it's easier to stumble across melodies and phrases you might not otherwise come up with by hand. The alternative is to play sequences manually or with an arpeggiator, but it's just not the same if you know what I mean.
Right now I'm spending a lot of time with my MAQ16/3 which is great for exploring patterns, but I need to figure out how to bridge the gap between patterns and complete songs.
What I like most about analog style sequencers is that it's easier to stumble across melodies and phrases you might not otherwise come up with by hand. The alternative is to play sequences manually or with an arpeggiator, but it's just not the same if you know what I mean.
Right now I'm spending a lot of time with my MAQ16/3 which is great for exploring patterns, but I need to figure out how to bridge the gap between patterns and complete songs.
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sduck
- experimental use of gravity
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Ok - what you just posted suggested that you might be well served with a klee sequencer. It may be a bit more random than what you're looking for, or it might be right up your alley - who knows?
This is an improv done with my klee - while I have certain pitches dialed up on the knobs, what comes out is completely unrelated, and you can go through unplanned explorations of various switch settings like this one, or you can experiment and find switch settings that work together into "songs" if you want -
[video][/video]
Big problem with the klee is that they're not readily available premade - Todd Fletcher at http://www.thesonicworkshop.com/ has made a lot of them for people, but I don't know his current prices or availability.
This is an improv done with my klee - while I have certain pitches dialed up on the knobs, what comes out is completely unrelated, and you can go through unplanned explorations of various switch settings like this one, or you can experiment and find switch settings that work together into "songs" if you want -
[video][/video]
Big problem with the klee is that they're not readily available premade - Todd Fletcher at http://www.thesonicworkshop.com/ has made a lot of them for people, but I don't know his current prices or availability.
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baltimoroder
- Wiggling with Experience
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I've never used a MAQ but it sounds like you can't recall stored sequences while the unit is running huh?BKN7000 wrote:Right now I'm spending a lot of time with my MAQ16/3 which is great for exploring patterns, but I need to figure out how to bridge the gap between patterns and complete songs.
Judging from the manual it has a pretty significant MIDI implementation... have you considered something like an MMT8 that can sync/send Program Change messages back to the sequencer to alter parameters during playback.
And maybe you've already tried this but a MAQ-only solution might be to run the lower rows at larger divisions of the master clock/gate sequence to modulate things like tempo, transpose, volume/muting, etc.
Just some ideas.
“Kraftwerk got off on the third floor and now George Clinton’s got Napalm Death in there with him. The elevator’s stalled between the pharmacy and the athletic wear store.”
Pretty cool, thanks. Although I will most likely end up getting a mass produced/pre built sequencer just for technical and long term maintenance reasons.sduck wrote: Big problem with the klee is that they're not readily available premade - Todd Fletcher at http://www.thesonicworkshop.com/ has made a lot of them for people, but I don't know his current prices or availability.
Yeah you have to stop the MAQ to switch to a different stored sequence. That's not a dealbreaker though. The big limitations is the loop and pattern chaining options. You can't tell a row to loop twice then stop and trigger another row, for example. It would be great if I could tell it to play row one 4 times, then row two 4 times, then row one again, etc.baltimoroder wrote:
I've never used a MAQ but it sounds like you can't recall stored sequences while the unit is running huh?
Judging from the manual it has a pretty significant MIDI implementation... have you considered something like an MMT8 that can sync/send Program Change messages back to the sequencer to alter parameters during playback.
And maybe you've already tried this but a MAQ-only solution might be to run the lower rows at larger divisions of the master clock/gate sequence to modulate things like tempo, transpose, volume/muting, etc.
Just some ideas.
Yeah, I constantly play around with different timing combinations between the rows, but it's still limited. I keep reverting to playing by hand when I hit a wall. Haha
Anyhow, when I eventually transition to a 5U modular setup, I don't think the MAQ will take me that far, so I'll have to look for other options. I was kind of hoping modular would open a bunch of new doors to alternative workflows, but it doesn't seem practical. It was worth asking around though. Lots of great feedback on this thread so far.
Worse case scenario is that I just get any of the modular sequencers just to play around with, but still use a MIDI sequencer as my go to. I have an Emu Command station also. It looks a little odd next to the modular but whatever.
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companyofquail
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i would highly recommend the sequentix cirklon. also dont forget you can get a combination of stg voltage mini stores, trigger mini stores and shift registers to accomplish this and not take up as much space as some of the larger modular sequencers.
-watson
-watson
Last edited by companyofquail on Mon Apr 04, 2011 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Christopher W.
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Beat me to it. The demo on the main Cirklon thread made me think it was perfect for a pop music application.companyofquail wrote:i would highly recommend the sequentix cirklon. also dont forget you can get a combination of stg voltage mini stores, trigger mini stores and shift registers to accomplish this and not take up as much space.
-watson
The price is a little eye-watering, but it seems to do a lot for the money.