Modcan Quarter Tone / Maqam Quantizer

[modularland]

Moving this thread to a more proper place...

Have you had enough with "both kinds of modular music: bleeps/bloops or quantized sequencers" ?

Are you looking for something new? Different? Or better yet- would you like to be part of the first wave of something completely new with modulars?

I was inspired by a thread asking about quarter tone quantizing... and here it goes.

Imagine a Modcan quantizer that had, instead of its current menu of modes/scales, a set of Maqam. Maqam are the Persian and Arabic musical modes that are based on quarter tones. You can see/hear them here: http://www.maqamworld.com

To my knowledge there are no VST plugins that will generate MIDI notes to make quarter tones. There are all-in-one keyboards that have them, but there is little in the world of sequencing, to my knowledge, that can do this- and none in the modular world.

I had spoken with Bruce about this during my visit- and now I'm gauging interest:

how many out there would be interested in pre-ordering a Modcan quantizer that came loaded with Maqam and a few other quarter tone or exotic scales?

[dude]

it'd be cool but for b-series or a for that matter, there just seems no reason it couldn't be crammed in to one of the 3 banks. maybe 1 bank of types you speak of and the first two would remain the same. i mean 48 scales is a ton of available options. would be as simple as a chip change or would it have to be a whole new design? i would take a bank 3 of quarter tones in a second! but i wouldn't buy a whole new quantizer. the current design is just perfect. it is the best quantizer around imo.

[parasitk]

Yeah I feel similarly to Dude. I don't have the Modcan Quantizer yet, but I do plan on getting an A Series version next year, and I'd love if it had these scales in it... I'd need more info.

An entire module dedicated to just this I'd be less interested in, but as an option/mod for the existing quantizer, sure!

[kindredlost]

Maybe not a VST exactly, but there are several software packages that output MIDI tuning scales. I use LMSO with Cubase all the time. Sort of like Numerology. Set it up then run Cubase (or your DAW of choice).

http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/16tone/

http://www.nonoctave.com/tuning/LilMissScaleOven/

http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/

I couldn't say whether any of these will do precisely what you are looking for with Maqam.

I've used LMSO to send scale tunings to my Q172 quantizer module. The quantizer also does have a 1/4 tone scale but that is far from Maqam.

A great idea Steve.

[modularland]

those are all nice softwares, but the two on top are Mac only...

modular music is almost totally western in nature if its tonal- time to break out of the box... I prefer Arabic/Persian/Indian music anyways...

Terry Riley had his performance analog synths tuned for this- its time to do something with modular that is finally truly new...

[thermionicjunky]

The H-Pi Tuning Box can retune MIDI notes to scales like this. There are a bunch of non-western presets and the scale editor is available for Mac and Windows.

[dude]

yeah i agree, this wouldn't be new except in that it would be available in the modular. but bring it on bank three and that would be a great idea. much better than the existing bank three imo. i mean, two of the scales are exactly the same and they are very much westernized version of the ones that purport being more eastern anyways.

[JohnLRice]

Some ideas for fun that are way easier said than done: 8_)

update the 55B to have 32 scales per bank. There is plenty of room on the faceplate for the "16" position LEDs. Put the ¼ tone scales in the above 16 areas.

update the 55B to have 4 banks. Either by replacing the toggle switches with rotary switches or add a second toggle switch each. Put the ¼ tone scales in bank D.

update the 55B to have 4 banks. Bank D is accessed from the new front panel USB port. Scale data is loaded from your computer to a thumb/jump/flash drive and bank D works when a thumb drive is inserted. Switching to bank D can be automatic when inserted and the bank switch is in the C position (for instance) or add another switch as in the suggestions above. This would be a nice feature in general since you could load any scales you want into it and then have all the scale changes you need in order for a performance and access them via a steadily increacing voltage control or whatever.

A new 1U quantizer that has no knobs or switches, a 2 digit decimal display to show selected scale and a USB jack for a flash drive as suggested above. All voltage controlled and the flash drive could hold 100 different scales.

[dude]

usb is pretty ugly is all i'm saying. who needs 100 scales? the 48 is already beyond the call of duty. a simple chip update could likely make this happen with no hardware change whatsoever. it isn't like the scales are written in stone.

[JohnLRice]

who needs 100 scales?

Greedy little scale pigs, that's who!

[doctorvague]

What I want is to make my own scales on the fly and not have them pre-determined (limited) by someone else. Not personally interested in quarter tones myself.

[JohnLRice]

What I want is to make my own scales on the fly and not have them pre-determined (limited) by someone else. Not personally interested in quarter tones myself.

I've read that the Moon quantizer is supposed to be working correctly now!

[BananaPlug]

Aside from a revision of the current tables, John's first two suggestions seem the most likely and I like the idea of a retrofit. John's third idea is interesting but that sounds like a whole new module.

update the 55B to have 32 scales per bank. There is plenty of room on the faceplate for the "16" position LEDs. Put the ¼ tone scales in the above 16 areas.

update the 55B to have 4 banks. Either by replacing the toggle switches with rotary switches or add a second toggle switch each. Put the ¼ tone scales in bank D.

Those methods don't provide an indicator though. How about leaving it as 16 per bank (so indicators still work) and three banks on the toggle switch but add an illuminated pushbutton (Mouser 612-LP1OA1AG) along the centerline of the module. It would switch to an alternate set of scales, also organized as 16 per bank (perhaps not a full set of 3 banks).

Here's part of a 55A for reference:


Years ago data like the scales would be stored in a separate ROM chip (think MiniWave) and a solution like this would have been done with reasonably simple monkeying with chip select lines but I'm guessing that the 55 stores the scale data in the main CPU and either has no room for more or no free I/O lines to support a switch. The latter problem might yield to clever use of existing I/O lines.

So yes, it would be great to have those scales and it would be nice if it was a retrofit (a kit maybe?) but I don't want to make too many assumptions about what's practical for Bruce to do.

[doctorvague]

What I want is to make my own scales on the fly and not have them pre-determined (limited) by someone else. Not personally interested in quarter tones myself.

I've read that the Moon quantizer is supposed to be working correctly now!

Sure like to hear that from several satisfied users. I've been burned already and am skeptical at this point.
(Sorry, OP for the OT)

[AnalogAssailant]

I would be interested in those scales.

If it's technically feasible to implement by a kit or whatever then i am in.

[gryfon1]

Yeah, I could go for it as well. Having microtones, or better, a selection of microtonal scales, available would be pretty awesome.
I'm kind of surprised no one has really done this yet in the modular world -- you'd think Harry Partch, at the least, would have been an influence.
But I'm not aware of a single modular quantizer that has a programmable microtonal capability.

cheers,
the gryfon

[JohnLRice]

Yeah, I could go for it as well. Having microtones, or better, a selection of microtonal scales, available would be pretty awesome.
I'm kind of surprised no one has really done this yet in the modular world -- you'd think Harry Partch, at the least, would have been an influence.
But I'm not aware of a single modular quantizer that has a programmable microtonal capability.

cheers,
the gryfon

I thought the new dotcom quantized could do that?

[gryfon1]

Doesn't look like it, at least not from what's on the web site. Will do 'quarter tones' but only sending the output through what amounts to a 'divide by 2'. Not enough, not nearly enough ;-)

cheers,
the gryfon

[kindredlost]

The Q172 does store one octave of tuning in any resolution. That is to say it will allow you to send MIDI info with the midi tuning standard and save it in two different scale program slots.

For instance you could save a just intonation in scale 1 and pythagorean in scale 2. I've used it to send Carlos Beta, or even Gamelan (sounding) intonations to the program banks.

It is limited to a 1v/oct constraint which is somewhat restrictive, but that was a trade-off that Roger had to design in when considering all the requests a year or so ago. The octave constraint is the way the scale is outlined. Once a note is played outside the octave the scale is reset. Confusing? Yeah, but without a million digital interface switches it is a decent working method (I suppose).

If you think of the idea of a quantizer in this regard, it is designed to be used with the Q960 and Q119 or any other control voltage source. It has to be constrained to an octave (or 1 volt) in order to be useful without using a designer scale called up with a ROM chip.

I have a pretty lame video of this method. It is mixed poorly but if you listen to the rolling sequencer in the background you can tell it is not exactly 12tET (twelve tone equal tempered). The played notes are too loud and kind of mask the background sequencer. I really need to do another video of how to send the data into the Q172 and manipulate it. As a side note, the midi out from the quantizer can be sending this alternative tuning data to other synths as well.

[video][/video]

I had some other videos of the Carlos beta and such but they got banned from YouTube for copyright reasons.

I'm only tyring ot point this out (like JLR did) because it keeps being repeated that there is no one in the modular realm making a custom scale setup. Well it is available and has been for a while now. Maybe not exactly what everyone would want but hey...

-David

[modularland]

I am dialoging with Bruce and my friends in the Middle East about this- I think we can get away with just a firmware swap at minimum- as more details come in I'll let everyone know- but it is pretty clear this will be a first- an analog quantizer with established quarter tone modes... if anyone has any faves outside of the maqam that are relative in pitch let me know so we can make a master list...

[dude]

What I want is to make my own scales on the fly and not have them pre-determined (limited) by someone else. Not personally interested in quarter tones myself.

you know you can control what cv goes into the quantizer? that will avail the option to pick what notes you want. there are far more ways to skin this chicken.

[dude]

I am dialoging with Bruce and my friends in the Middle East about this- I think we can get away with just a firmware swap at minimum- as more details come in I'll let everyone know- but it is pretty clear this will be a first- an analog quantizer with established quarter tone modes... if anyone has any faves outside of the maqam that are relative in pitch let me know so we can make a master list...

that is wonderful! it would be such a shame to redesign the best quantizer ever just to add something that could be changed with a chip or firmware. no need to reinvent the wheel. he already did that!

[gryfon1]

Well, I'd really like to have the Partch 43 note scale.
And I believe Wendy Carlos has a couple of 20-odd or 30-odd notes/octave microtonal scales that would seem to be worthy additions.
But I'm hardly an expert in this matters ;-)

cheers,
the gryfon

[sunsinger]

There are a number of custom micto-tuning scales, as well as a quarter tone scale in the scales section of the MOTM 650 Midi CV. These tunings were requested or programmed by Robert Rich. I don't know what half of these are, but they sound interesting. I think these are explained in the online manual at Paul's site. This module just discontinued and sold out, though I've seen them used from time to time.

They include:
Partch 11
JIMinYam
JIMajYam
PelSlenB
7LimBlkc
3-7LattA
3-5LattA
JIA&/5D#
PythagoC
31ToneET
19ToneET
1/4toneET
Meantone
HrmA-12T
HrmAi-60
12 Tone

[kindredlost]

The HrmA-12T should prove to incur significant consequences for synth work.

http://www.hermode.com/index_en.html

Less tonal phasing and "beating" vs. the compromise with 12tET. (no disrespect to J.S. Bach)