Where is Oldcrow

[J3RK]

I still can't believe people here are coming out to make excuses for someone who has ghosted (from the comments, I take it very angry) patrons completely from an update in 3 YEARS. There's no excuses for that, at all.

As Janne said, it's very easy and very cheap to just communicate. However ugly the truth might be, you must communicate it.

No pitchforks, here, and I sincerely hope scott/oldcrow is doing well. But I just do not understand people going up to bat to defend such horrible business practices.

I agree to a point. However, when we're talking about these projects, we aren't dealing with traditional businesses. I do agree with your points, so don't get me wrong there. Communication is key, especially when things are not going to plan. However, and this isn't an excuse as much as just another perspective, this type of project is generally started up by someone doing it out of the love of doing it. Not someone with a business degree. Things can VERY quickly get a bit out of hand. I know this from experience (though on a LOT smaller of a scale, and I didn't take peoples' money ahead of time). As an individual, and possibly not a very business-minded one, it quickly gets overwhelming, and not everyone handles this type of pressure very well. That brings me to my point, that people without a solid business plan in place should not do crowdfunding, or take large amounts of money up front. Do the dev work on your own dime, and own time, and then when it's ready, start taking deposits to actually build the things or kit them, or whatever. Crowdfunding IMO is dangerous.

One more cent or two on how solid a guy Scott was up to this point. I've had nothing but positive experiences with him, even just conversing. However, something obviously has happened, and maybe he's just afraid to speak up on the matter. (which isn't the greatest route to go I know)

I'm definitely on the side of people who paid wanting some information, good or bad. I want to be clear here. However, we're not talking about a "company" proper here. It's just a guy, with any flaws, fears, life events that any of the rest of us had. He just probably shouldn't have taken money prematurely.

[devinw1]

Totally agree with you J3RK, and what I would say is I stand by my main point: communication.

Even an update of: "So sorry, but this project got COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTROL and I'm trying to pull everything together and running very late....etc etc.." is WAY better than ghosting people entirely.

[J3RK]

Totally agree with you J3RK, and what I would say is I stand by my main point: communication.

Even an update of: "So sorry, but this project got COMPLETELY OUT OF CONTROL and I'm trying to pull everything together and running very late....etc etc.." is WAY better than ghosting people entirely.

Agree completely! In my experience it's hard to give people news that I know they don't want to hear. Like lay awake at night for several days-hard. In the end I've always done it, but I can see how it would be easy for someone of a different personality type to lean the other way. Sometimes (especially in our field of interest) shit happens, and we just need to let people know that. Most of the time people are pretty understanding. There are always some that fly off the handle and think you're trying to pull something over on them, but for the most part, I find people are ok with things getting pushed out. (and knowing that there's only so much one guy can do) It's a hard position to be in though whether you communicate or not. I could also see it hitting the downward spiral of I didn't communicate, so I can't communicate, what am I going to do? sort of thing. Or, maybe something horrible happened, and none of us know about it. Anyone's guess right now I think.

Anyway, short answer, is I agree. COMMUNICATE!

[soup]

Not to apologize for Scott (I do love the 480 filter) but kickstarter is pure bad vibes. It's so easy for things to spiral out of control there and the internet is real quick to make you feel bad about it which only makes things worse.

But I did find Paul Schreiber's comments about kickstarter really interesting...
http://traffic.libsyn.com/artmusictech/ ... r-Long.mp3
(at about 9 minutes in)

[SynthBaron]

But I did find Paul Schreiber's comments about kickstarter really interesting...
http://traffic.libsyn.com/artmusictech/ ... r-Long.mp3
(at about 9 minutes in)

Thanks for the link. Paul is always interesting to listen to.

[Ebolatone]

I hope everything is okay with him and he can fix any and all issues he's facing, known and unknown.

[JanneI]

I did buy his Crowminius back in 2016 or something and I did get the PCB pretty soon after purchasing. My build got stuck in the "design and build a proper enclosure" -phase, so I'm not sure if he ever finished the firmware for the midi2cv or the USB port. Besides that, no complaints.

The OB-X clone of his, crOw-BX, is another story... there are plenty of mistakes on the schematics and the PCBs, So, after carefully reading 400 pages of troubleshooting tips here, I did get it working almost on the first try. I guess that's DIY, but I think it's not too much to ask to document the changes needed while prototyping. Assuming that he did build one before selling those PCBs. The synth itself sounds great though!
The irony is that the second available OB-X clone Kickstarter project is also 2 years late (not oldCrow's).

A brilliant SDIYer and a good example of how not to run your business. I do hope he is doing well.

[Severed head]

I still can't believe people here are coming out to make excuses for someone who has ghosted (from the comments, I take it very angry) patrons completely from an update in 3 YEARS. There's no excuses for that, at all.

As Janne said, it's very easy and very cheap to just communicate. However ugly the truth might be, you must communicate it.

No pitchforks, here, and I sincerely hope scott/oldcrow is doing well. But I just do not understand people going up to bat to defend such horrible business practices.

I believe it, in the modular community as a whole, I see the “absolute adoration” thing as almost obligatory, like if a person comes out with an sorta less than whimsical stance on a modular (generally eurorack) manufacturer they are the one getting pitchforked.
And when it comes to small 1-2man operations it seem exponentially worse.

I mean I get it a 1-2man operation is on a different time & production level than a large corp. but in my book, that doesn’t allow for a sub par production or extremely extensive delays.

Because in my reality
simply put, If a person can’t build the project 1time for themselves, and work out the kinks on their own budget, they shouldn’t be taking money for a production.
Collecting money for R&D is for me unacceptable.

I mean anyone of us could come up with a great “idea” for a synth, module or whatever but that is WAY different from being able to build it. And affectively produce it.
And it would be really lame to come out saying I have an idea make a mock up that’s a panel with pits jacks and LEDs and then start taking money. (Perfect example of this TE2 slated for 6m been over 3years)

—I will admit this strange adoration complex is becoming less prevalent than it was 5yrs ago when it was REALLY BAD.

- I also do wish old crow the best, but agree
As some put above communication is free easy fast, if a person is unable to do do themselves unless the were in some sorta catastrophic event that leaves them unable to communicate in person to at very least say to someone they trust “make an update for me”

[bitmonkey]

As a Kickstarter backer, I would be happy to take the parts for my unit. A DIY option was offered, so it doesn’t seem like asking too much. I have met Crow and hung out a bit at Knobcon, and I hope he’s okay.

[grenert]

As another backer, I'd be happy (and relieved) to just opt to get my board amd parts and just try to do the thing myself. But with no communication, I get nothing.

The experience completely soured me on crowdfunding (synth or otherwise), and I am content to just wait to buy a completed product or forego it entirely if that's not an option. There's enough stuff in the world and in my own possession that I don't need every new shiny thing that catches my eye.

[bitmonkey]

Indeed, grenert, this project is one reason that I am reluctant to join Kickstarter campaigns, anymore.

[KSS]

Because in my reality
simply put, If a person can’t build the project 1time for themselves, and work out the kinks on their own budget, they shouldn’t be taking money for a production.
Collecting money for R&D is for me unacceptable.

Then you need to stay *far* away from KickStarter. Because that is EXACTLY what Kickstarter was and is set up for!

The whole point of Kickstarter's existence is to provide R&D investments for prospective projects that are *not* yet fully viable.

That's been twisted to the point that Kickstarter had to emphasize to potential backers that you are not buying a product, you are investing in an idea to help it become a product. There's a fine line here that Kickstarter has to walk and they've instituted additional vetting and project requirements to help ensure that the majority of projects do conclude favorably. One example was the removal of virtual 3D simulations on project videos.

None of this is meant -in any way- to comment one way or another on Old Crow's situation. That's between him and his backers.
I do not have a horse in this race.

Kickstarter makes it clear in a number of ways that the act of backing a project is not to be considered the same as making a purchase of an item at a store.

[devinw1]

That's all true, KSS, but normally the investors are promised something very clear that they will get as a return, depending on how much they invested etc.. Now, I'm sure the timelines often get stretched on WHEN these deliverables are delivered, and that is understandable given all the unknowns in developing something new. But the issue, I think in the case of the Crowminius and some other examples, is just not communicating with the investors at all for long periods of time, especially when timelines are getting pushed out years at a time.

Investors start getting antsy and thinking they may have been "had" if they don't hear news.

News. News. News.

No news, unhappy investors. Basic stuff.

[Didi]

I don't know Scott. I hope he is alright. I do know that projects can take much longer than anticipated, both designing and building. However, it seems like the Crowminius project is finished because pcbs/panels are available for purchase from a US-based synth DIY shop.

[Severed head]

Because in my reality
simply put, If a person can’t build the project 1time for themselves, and work out the kinks on their own budget, they shouldn’t be taking money for a production.
Collecting money for R&D is for me unacceptable.

Then you need to stay *far* away from KickStarter. Because that is EXACTLY what Kickstarter was and is set up for!

The whole point of Kickstarter's existence is to provide R&D investments for prospective projects that are *not* yet fully viable.

That's been twisted to the point that Kickstarter had to emphasize to potential backers that you are not buying a product, you are investing in an idea to help it become a product. There's a fine line here that Kickstarter has to walk and they've instituted additional vetting and project requirements to help ensure that the majority of projects do conclude favorably. One example was the removal of virtual 3D simulations on project videos.

None of this is meant -in any way- to comment one way or another on Old Crow's situation. That's between him and his backers.
I do not have a horse in this race.

Kickstarter makes it clear in a number of ways that the act of backing a project is not to be considered the same as making a purchase of an item at a store.

I personally do stay away from Kickstarter.
Unless it’s a reputable builder, or a person with a standing record of accomplishment, which is why I’m sure the OC situation has gotten people frustrated

But on the other side.
Again I’m only speaking from my perspective.
I think collecting money to buy materials, or cover manufacturing is WAY different than collecting money so a noob engineer can learn everything it takes to electronically design, build & test a circuit (I.e. TE2) and then manufacture it as a finished product.

Just my thoughts.
I think those 2 positions and any stage in between should be clearly stated to the perspective investors.
As for me personally it makes a major difference in where my limited funds go

[The Real MC]

FWIW, I helped OldCrow with the OBX voice card clone and would see him regularly at AHMW events. He showed his Crowminius there. Doesn't seem at all like him to take the $$ and run. The last AHMW I was able to attend (2019), Scott was sick with flu and couldn't make it.

Sometimes life gets in the way for reasons unknown and/or not meant for public. I had to deal with elder care for my aging parents and it was a very stressful five year ordeal.

[JohnLRice]

I had to deal with elder care for my aging parents and it was a very stressful five year ordeal.

I can relate.

[dubonaire]

That's all true, KSS, but normally the investors are promised something very clear that they will get as a return, depending on how much they invested etc..

Well actually investors in startups know that 90% of startups fail. So it's no guarantee and you need to do your homework if you are going to invest in something that hasn't been produced yet. VC investors expect a large number of their investments fail but hope that a few will pay dividends big enough to cover losses.

[Altitude909]

..Sometimes life gets in the way for reasons unknown and/or not meant for public. ..

while that's true, it does not give you a pass if money has changed hands. Clearly this situation is way out of hand at this point, 3 years+ from collecting fund and no updates leaves coma or death as a valid excuse. Scott looked very much alive and awake at knobconn. Unfortunately, this looks like another derailed project where ppl are losing all their money. Kickstarter doesnt have any form of dispute system?

It saddens me a bit to see stuff like this happen since a lot of people in the scene are pretty positive and trusting of people considered "makers" so when they get ripped off, it sours everything for everyone. Big scams are becoming more common too, there was a $100k+ used synth scam last year

[devinw1]

That's all true, KSS, but normally the investors are promised something very clear that they will get as a return, depending on how much they invested etc..

Well actually investors in startups know that 90% of startups fail. So it's no guarantee and you need to do your homework if you are going to invest in something that hasn't been produced yet. VC investors expect a large number of their investments fail but hope that a few will pay dividends big enough to cover losses.

I meant on Kickstarter. It's common from what I've seen to show an array of things you will get, in tiers, depending on how much you invest. The schedule of course is not always set, but it's usually clear WHAT you will get. I wasn't referring to traditional financial market based investments. I am no expert in that field! I'm just an engineer!

But, to reiterate my main point: communication is key. Even if the ship is going down full on Titanic style, I would rather hear it from the person who took my money rather than waiting in silence for years.

[devinw1]

I had to deal with elder care for my aging parents and it was a very stressful five year ordeal.

I can relate.

Me too. We just lost my mom actually last year after a long battle with declining state due to cerebellar degeneration. Now my father is alone with a healing partial leg amputation and trying to figure out that situation.

[DMR]

That's all true, KSS, but normally the investors are promised something very clear that they will get as a return, depending on how much they invested etc..

Well actually investors in startups know that 90% of startups fail. So it's no guarantee and you need to do your homework if you are going to invest in something that hasn't been produced yet. VC investors expect a large number of their investments fail but hope that a few will pay dividends big enough to cover losses.

I meant on Kickstarter. It's common from what I've seen to show an array of things you will get, in tiers, depending on how much you invest. The schedule of course is not always set, but it's usually clear WHAT you will get. I wasn't referring to traditional financial market based investments. I am no expert in that field! I'm just an engineer!

But, to reiterate my main point: communication is key. Even if the ship is going down full on Titanic style, I would rather hear it from the person who took my money rather than waiting in silence for years.

I would never 'purchase' a product on Kickstarter for all these reasons. I would be curious what % of Kickstarter projects that are ostensibly selling a physical device actually deliver what they promise on-time.

[soup]

I would be curious what % of Kickstarter projects that are ostensibly selling a physical device actually deliver what they promise on-time.

According to the Paul Schreiber interview linked above it's about 5%.

[spacejazz]

Ordered something a couple of years ago. Same thing. So I mailed him, and he responded fast, was apologetic, and got my order to me.

Hope you get it sorted.

[SynthBaron]

I guess he's about to be too busy working for Behringer:

"Scott “Old Crow” Ryder joins the UB-X synthesizer development team.
We’re extremely proud to have gained another analog synthesizer icon to join our ever-growing synth engineering team. Scott has decades of analog synthesizer experience under his belt and built his own OB-X, CS-80 and many more. Check out his website http://www.cs80.com/.
Scott is reading here, and you may want to send him some love:-)"