Future for Cwejman?

[chiasticon]

thank you for sharing this information, i'm relieved to read that repair of cwejman modules is still possible!

anyone know if repair is still possible in the states? I contacted Big City about it and they never replied (probably been two months since I emailed).

[Gringo Starr]

thank you for sharing this information, i'm relieved to read that repair of cwejman modules is still possible!

anyone know if repair is still possible in the states? I contacted Big City about it and they never replied (probably been two months since I emailed).

BCM sucks at returning emails. Call them. They fixed a Cwejman module for me before. I can't remember her name but there's a woman who works there that I believe worked with Cynthia way back in the day. She repaired a Cwejman module for me once. Now that I think about it her name might be Stephi but I'm not 100% sure.

[chiasticon]

BCM sucks at returning emails. Call them. They fixed a Cwejman module for me before. I can't remember her name but there's a woman who works there that I believe worked with Cynthia way back in the day. She repaired a Cwejman module for me once. Now that I think about it her name might be Stephi but I'm not 100% sure.

Stephi is who I worked with directly when I bought the item, and who I tried contacting. unless maybe she's left...?

yeah not replying to a February 5th email by April 22nd definitely qualifies as "sucks at returning emails." I'll try calling, thanks.

[trickness]

They are pretty bad at replying to emails, call them and ask Roger what the deal is if you can’t get Stephi

[toppobrillo]

I've worked audio manufacturing for decades. I've owned a few Cwejman modules and can appreciate the high quality.

There is nothing mysterious or unobtanium in the modules that bore the Cwejman name. The ones that I've used have been well-engineered and well-designed products that were not built to a low price. He chose expensive potentiometers and other important parts.

The magic was in the designs and dedication to quality. All of the parts were made by others and I'm betting that much of the assembly work was farmed out to contractors. Even if not, there is nothing in them can't be precisely duplicated at a 100 production houses.

A licensing deal or sale for the properties can easily be transferred to another conscientious owner. This happens all the time for much more sophisticated products.

I did a res-4 modification very recently, one of the more expensive cwejman modules. The pots and jacks were the same low cost parts that are in most eurorack modules. The op-amps were all TL074, cheap matched pairs, cheap trimmers, etc. The only potentially expensive parts were the custom jack nuts, silk screened panel, switches, and THAT VCAs (8 total) but even those things can be cheap in economies of scale.

yep. perception is a heck of a thing.. I repaired a Macbeth module for a friend, same old shit as anyone else. I once had a friend tell me to *raise* prices in the face of competition.. I didn't.. but it's an interesting strategy.. appeals to a certain market for sure to feel as if they've made the superior purchase.

[Gringo Starr]

I've worked audio manufacturing for decades. I've owned a few Cwejman modules and can appreciate the high quality.

There is nothing mysterious or unobtanium in the modules that bore the Cwejman name. The ones that I've used have been well-engineered and well-designed products that were not built to a low price. He chose expensive potentiometers and other important parts.

The magic was in the designs and dedication to quality. All of the parts were made by others and I'm betting that much of the assembly work was farmed out to contractors. Even if not, there is nothing in them can't be precisely duplicated at a 100 production houses.

A licensing deal or sale for the properties can easily be transferred to another conscientious owner. This happens all the time for much more sophisticated products.

I did a res-4 modification very recently, one of the more expensive cwejman modules. The pots and jacks were the same low cost parts that are in most eurorack modules. The op-amps were all TL074, cheap matched pairs, cheap trimmers, etc. The only potentially expensive parts were the custom jack nuts, silk screened panel, switches, and THAT VCAs (8 total) but even those things can be cheap in economies of scale.

yep. perception is a heck of a thing.. I repaired a Macbeth module for a friend, same old shit as anyone else. I once had a friend tell me to *raise* prices in the face of competition.. I didn't.. but it's an interesting strategy.. appeals to a certain market for sure to feel as if they've made the superior purchase.

Reminds me of a story I heard. Around 15 years ago I met a real-estate agent who was selling homes in the Cape Cod and Martha’s Vineyard areas. He told me that he had been trying to sell this one house for three million dollars that had been sitting there for several months. After a while the owners suggested they lower the price to 2.5 but he suggested they raise the price to five million which is what they did. He said within one week they had an offer for 4.5 which they accepted.

[Jaypee]

It's not about parts but the way the whole module is designed.

I'd love to have new cheap modules that equal Cwejman SOUND quality.

I only judge a module by the result, not what is inside.

[Portabella]

yep. perception is a heck of a thing.. I repaired a Macbeth module for a friend, same old shit as anyone else. I once had a friend tell me to *raise* prices in the face of competition.. I didn't.. but it's an interesting strategy.. appeals to a certain market for sure to feel as if they've made the superior purchase.

you're repulsive approach towards other, higher priced, manufactures makes me wanna sell all of your modules I have right away.

[slumberjack]

yep. perception is a heck of a thing.. I repaired a Macbeth module for a friend, same old shit as anyone else. I once had a friend tell me to *raise* prices in the face of competition.. I didn't.. but it's an interesting strategy.. appeals to a certain market for sure to feel as if they've made the superior purchase.

you're repulsive approach towards other, higher priced, manufactures makes me wanna sell all of your modules I have right away.

To me it's the opposite. I run a business by myself and I always try to sell my stuff at a fair price. After all costs a margin applied above two is usury to me. But hey, this is just my POV and I know it's not how the world turns and I'm kinda idealistic here. And other segments in the market have other customers etc.

[charlie]

I still have green military cwejman and will let them go for a good but not scary price

If someone is interested, let me know

Res4, adsr vc2, vco6 all in perfect state
Vca 4 mx with one scratchy pot

[Illiac]

yep. perception is a heck of a thing.. I repaired a Macbeth module for a friend, same old shit as anyone else. I once had a friend tell me to *raise* prices in the face of competition.. I didn't.. but it's an interesting strategy.. appeals to a certain market for sure to feel as if they've made the superior purchase.

you're repulsive approach towards other, higher priced, manufactures makes me wanna sell all of your modules I have right away.

Sounds like you have some repulsively underpriced modules and grotesquely overpriced modules on your hands. I’ll give you for the whole lot.

[toppobrillo]

I've worked audio manufacturing for decades. I've owned a few Cwejman modules and can appreciate the high quality.

There is nothing mysterious or unobtanium in the modules that bore the Cwejman name. The ones that I've used have been well-engineered and well-designed products that were not built to a low price. He chose expensive potentiometers and other important parts.

The magic was in the designs and dedication to quality. All of the parts were made by others and I'm betting that much of the assembly work was farmed out to contractors. Even if not, there is nothing in them can't be precisely duplicated at a 100 production houses.

A licensing deal or sale for the properties can easily be transferred to another conscientious owner. This happens all the time for much more sophisticated products.

I did a res-4 modification very recently, one of the more expensive cwejman modules. The pots and jacks were the same low cost parts that are in most eurorack modules. The op-amps were all TL074, cheap matched pairs, cheap trimmers, etc. The only potentially expensive parts were the custom jack nuts, silk screened panel, switches, and THAT VCAs (8 total) but even those things can be cheap in economies of scale.

yep. perception is a heck of a thing.. I repaired a Macbeth module for a friend, same old shit as anyone else. I once had a friend tell me to *raise* prices in the face of competition.. I didn't.. but it's an interesting strategy.. appeals to a certain market for sure to feel as if they've made the superior purchase.

Reminds me of a story I heard. Around 15 years ago I met a real-estate agent who was selling homes in the Cape Cod and Martha’s Vineyard areas. He told me that he had been trying to sell this one house for three million dollars that had been sitting there for several months. After a while the owners suggested they lower the price to 2.5 but he suggested they raise the price to five million which is what they did. He said within one week they had an offer for 4.5 which they accepted.

wow. haha. my buddy ran an internet security business back in the heyday, they took this advice when competition ramped up and apparently were successful- I suppose it served to differentiate them, as when comparing prices, you'd ask- why is this service more? I guess they were more established and it paid off.

It's not about parts but the way the whole module is designed.

I'd love to have new cheap modules that equal Cwejman SOUND quality.

I only judge a module by the result, not what is inside.

t o t a l l y 1000%

yep. perception is a heck of a thing.. I repaired a Macbeth module for a friend, same old shit as anyone else. I once had a friend tell me to *raise* prices in the face of competition.. I didn't.. but it's an interesting strategy.. appeals to a certain market for sure to feel as if they've made the superior purchase.

you're repulsive approach towards other, higher priced, manufactures makes me wanna sell all of your modules I have right away.

whoa. I've caught shit for diggin on predatory pricing before plenty!, but never caught shit for what might have been perceived as a dig on more expensive modules! lol. I'd like to know where you think I am coming from ? I never said that those guys suck! on the contrary, I think they are both solid. I just said yep- no magic duck turds in any of these modules, which of course is true, and then made a comment, a supposition I guess , about a particular market, what's the matter , ehem , what is 'repulsive' about that? srsly.

[slumberjack]

BTW there you find somehow a reasonable priced DLFO and VCA4 but only to be sold in Switzerland:

https://www.ricardo.ch/de/c/modular-78423/

[B0bcat]

I had not seen any other production updates, so I'm really stoked to see that production is going to continue.

Capture.PNG (32.12 KiB) Viewed 1160 times

[Sleepfc]

yep. perception is a heck of a thing.. I repaired a Macbeth module for a friend, same old shit as anyone else. I once had a friend tell me to *raise* prices in the face of competition.. I didn't.. but it's an interesting strategy.. appeals to a certain market for sure to feel as if they've made the superior purchase.

you're repulsive approach towards other, higher priced, manufactures makes me wanna sell all of your modules I have right away.

Yeah toppobrillo sucks anyway

[oldenjon]

It's not about parts but the way the whole module is designed.

I'd love to have new cheap modules that equal Cwejman SOUND quality.

I only judge a module by the result, not what is inside.

t o t a l l y 1000%

Yeah I was just reinforcing the post I quoted but also challenging the notion that the circuits are difficult or expensive to reproduce. They are well-engineered and the fact that common parts are used to such great effect is a sign of that. IMO, the whole 'audiophile-grade/expensive parts' thing is often a marketing crutch (in analog synth modules anyways). In any case you're paying for the design more than you are component quality with Cwejman, and nobody is saying that's a bad thing.

[transistorresistor]

I have no idea whats going on in a cwejman module. With that said:

With my brand, in some of our products we sorted and matched every single pot, some of the transistors and a handful of caps. This means that every single of these parts coming into inventory is measured, labeled, sorted and for those that are outside the window of tolerance specified, discarded. Between the labor involved in this and the percentage that went in the trash, this could add anywhere from 10x to 100x the price of the part per line item.

so, when you open up the module and see a bunch of super common, cheap parts, if those parts are all say %10, and the manufacturer sorted them down to %1, all of a sudden that part is definitely not so cheap anymore. Unless the manufacturer is putting a nail polish paint code on transistors like some british console manfucturers did in the late 60s, there is likely little to tell anyone looking at a new board the degree of sorting, if any, is present.

So to dismiss a thing as "its the same cheap stuff as everyone else" on the surface is of course accurate, because there is only so much stuff to chose from to build these common circuits, but it also doesnt necessarily tell the whole story. There is definitely a way for a $0.20 part to cost $2.50 if its a %10 part and it takes 10 pc to find a %1 part. been there... A module built of exactly the same shit as someone else can legit incur 100x the manufacturing costs if the parts specified are not available sorted by the component manufacturer and the circuit is spec'd for a higher degree of precision that the presorted parts arrive in.

I have no comment on who is or isnt doing this, just that there should be some caution applied if you are going to be dismissive about the actual installed price of common parts, there is a version of this where its not as simple as it may appear. Just because you can buy a given part for $0.10 does not necessarily mean that it cost the manufacturer only $0.10 by the time that part was selected for installation.

[Fog Door]

its interesting to hear that perspective, transistorresistor, its certainly a point I'd never considered

I really don't understand why toppobrillo is drawing such ire in this thread though

[oldenjon]

I have no idea whats going on in a cwejman module. With that said:

With my brand, in some of our products we sorted and matched every single pot, some of the transistors and a handful of caps. This means that every single of these parts coming into inventory is measured, labeled, sorted and for those that are outside the window of tolerance specified, discarded. Between the labor involved in this and the percentage that went in the trash, this could add anywhere from 10x to 100x the price of the part per line item.

so, when you open up the module and see a bunch of super common, cheap parts, if those parts are all say %10, and the manufacturer sorted them down to %1, all of a sudden that part is definitely not so cheap anymore. Unless the manufacturer is putting a nail polish paint code on transistors like some british console manfucturers did in the late 60s, there is likely little to tell anyone looking at a new board the degree of sorting, if any, is present.

So to dismiss a thing as "its the same cheap stuff as everyone else" on the surface is of course accurate, because there is only so much stuff to chose from to build these common circuits, but it also doesnt necessarily tell the whole story. There is definitely a way for a $0.20 part to cost $2.50 if its a %10 part and it takes 10 pc to find a %1 part. been there... A module built of exactly the same shit as someone else can legit incur 100x the manufacturing costs if the parts specified are not available sorted by the component manufacturer and the circuit is spec'd for a higher degree of precision that the presorted parts arrive in.

I have no comment on who is or isnt doing this, just that there should be some caution applied if you are going to be dismissive about the actual installed price of common parts, there is a version of this where its not as simple as it may appear. Just because you can buy a given part for $0.10 does not necessarily mean that it cost the manufacturer only $0.10 by the time that part was selected for installation.

Sure, I wouldn't say that my assessment is 100% accurate, just a generalization I made from looking at one of the more expensive Cwejman modules. The transistors were SMT matched pairs, which wouldn't really make sense if you're going to do additional matching but I understand it is something you can pay for the assembly factory to do and that probably doesn't involve wasting anything. I guess I can see where you might want to match pots (e.g. dual gang) but they are available in 5% tolerance at an additional cost and you can most likely use the ones that don't match for other purposes right? Those are some of the more expensive parts to match though. Resistor matching doesn't really seem like a thing unless you don't want to spend the money on precision resistors. Capacitors with tight tolerances are also available and cheap enough at large quantities if you need to match. Not every circuit is going to require matching and precision though.... Unless it's just some design goal for marketing purposes or something. In any case I still think you can do precision while pricing competitively. The Rossum analog stuff is probably a good example of this.

[transistorresistor]

Im just sharing my experience and my comments are just general, not directed at anyone here. Im personally also working exclusively through hole because we were using alot of old stock parts. There is definitely no resistor matching if metal film works for you, %1 has been available cheap for eons. If the transistors you buy are available in matched pairs then there would be no need for additional screening if their tolerance matched your spec. Pots are a nightmare no matter how much you spend on them and this is especially the case w multis. And no, not every circuit requires crazy precision, not by a long shot. Most stuff you can buy right out of a catalog and get exactly what you need. But my point is, if you are using a common part that was only available that month in %5 and you need it %1, the actual cost of that part is not going to be able to be easily seen by someone outside of production if you had sorting and %85 of what you had to purchase is outside your tolerance.

but certainly, absolutely, you can do intense precision and be wholly competitive about it. Especially so for a thing you design in september and put into fabrication in december. Where this can get wonky is when the precision part you selected isnt available in the future and a sub was required and it needed to be sorted, million scenarios like that.

again, just some general comments on decisions that get made and circumstances that have the possibility of existing. Cheap part on paper doesnt always necessarily mean a cheap part by the time its soldered in. No idea what any specific manufacturer is doing, just presenting a manufacturing variable that has the possibility of existing and is worth considering . A part with a number printed on it sometimes doesnt tell the whole story.

[oldenjon]

Im just sharing my experience and my comments are just general, not directed at anyone here. Im personally also working exclusively through hole because we were using alot of old stock parts. There is definitely no resistor matching if metal film works for you, %1 has been available cheap for eons. If the transistors you buy are available in matched pairs then there would be no need for additional screening if their tolerance matched your spec. Pots are a nightmare no matter how much you spend on them and this is especially the case w multis. And no, not every circuit requires crazy precision, not by a long shot. Most stuff you can buy right out of a catalog and get exactly what you need. But my point is, if you are using a common part that was only available that month in %5 and you need it %1, the actual cost of that part is not going to be able to be easily seen by someone outside of production if you had sorting and %85 of what you had to purchase is outside your tolerance.

but certainly, absolutely, you can do intense precision and be wholly competitive about it. Especially so for a thing you design in september and put into fabrication in december. Where this can get wonky is when the precision part you selected isnt available in the future and a sub was required and it needed to be sorted, million scenarios like that.

again, just some general comments on decisions that get made and circumstances that have the possibility of existing. Cheap part on paper doesnt always necessarily mean a cheap part by the time its soldered in. No idea what any specific manufacturer is doing, just presenting a manufacturing variable that has the possibility of existing and is worth considering . A part with a number printed on it sometimes doesnt tell the whole story.

Yeah, definitely interesting, thanks for sharing. I hadn't heard of pot matching but was actually thinking I might want to try it in a specific case pretty soon, although not certain it's necessary. I'm not sure how much of it is applicable to Cwejman, but I think we agree that it's probably not responsible for the price difference.

[Gringo Starr]

I had not seen any other production updates, so I'm really stoked to see that production is going to continue.

Capture.PNG

Well that’s good news. The used Cwejman gougers can go back to the shit-hole they crawled out of.

[transistorresistor]

Yeah, definitely interesting, thanks for sharing. I hadn't heard of pot matching but was actually thinking I might want to try it in a specific case pretty soon, although not certain it's necessary.

matching pots becomes a far more critical thing if you are manufacturing multi channels that all need to be as close to identical as possible for things like recording consoles, which is what I was involved with, but we just got in the habit of sorting after that cause it feels like good practice and I also ran my own manufacturing where this becomes easier to administer than when working w contract manufacturers. You can drill down on this deep enough until any pot isnt good enough and you wind up w switched resistors, which is why, on modern, very expensive mastering equipment you get EQ's and compressors with only switched resistors and no pots at all, anywhere in the box. Some of the ideology in approach to this is for recall and repeatability, also resolution (like a 1/4 or 1/2 dB step for the first two positions) but also because you can get your left and right channels *identical* in performance. This is going way off topic though.

Again, I have no comment on what any specific manufacturer is doing only that when I see correlations being drawn from what the part cost at the point of purchase and using that to judge a retail price I have a sensitivity. Yes of course sometimes and maybe even mostly often, expensive things are expensive to be expensive and thats fine and not the cause for my defense. I just know with authority that the pot that we might have paid $4 in one product wound up costing over $12 by the time in went into the unit and nobody out in the field could ever open a unit up and see how there is $80 in unaccounted cost in 10 pots if they just looked the part number up in a catalog and see what it cost.

Anyway, this is probably meandering off topic for this thread but there are circumstances where its hard to just hold a pcb in your hand and know the assembled cost. On modern, smt construction, is your guess gonna be accurate %90 of the time or even more often than that? Yeah totally, it likely is. But there are circumstances where there are labor costs that just might be completely hidden that youd never ever know or suspect looking at a bunch of common parts that me, you and everyone else can buy for pennies.

[oldenjon]

Anyway, this is probably meandering off topic for this thread but there are circumstances where its hard to just hold a pcb in your hand and know the assembled cost. On modern, smt construction, is your guess gonna be accurate %90 of the time or even more often than that? Yeah totally, it likely is. But there are circumstances where there are labor costs that just might be completely hidden that youd never ever know or suspect looking at a bunch of common parts that me, you and everyone else can buy for pennies.

Agree about meandering. I just felt this stemmed from a comment I made that ended up out of context. I do think expensive matching techniques are not applicable to what I looked at and that my judgement on the matter was sound. That's all

[transistorresistor]

I just felt this stemmed from a comment I made that ended up out of context.

nope, not at all. Just offering some general thoughts to the collective conscious on manufacturing that might not be apparent. Sometimes expensive stuff is just expensive to be expensive, or because a business model only calls for selling x units, not 100x units and people still need to make a living wage, or because there are manufacturing costs that might not be obvious. Just tempering the usual "why is it so expensive" that usually comes up w an angle to consider. sometimes its just expensive to be expensive other times very high priced brands have very thin profit margins, lots of parts at play.