Behringer VCS3

[kons]

My point, minimally posed, is whether people who have felt that B have done bad before (maybe even stating they'd never support such a company) stick to their beliefs or get sucked in by the desire for such an icon.

I don't believe in the devil so I can't be tempted by the devil.
It is interesting to see people who do believe in the devil if (or what) they can be tempted by. No biggie really. People are human and accepting that we all compromise our principles at times is just accepting reality. I'd imagine that this BCS3 is one of the most compelling temptations the devil has made so far.

Of course the proof will be in the pudding. Has Beh made a good matrix, are the smd-componentized circuits 99.9% there etc. The aesthetics seem to have been nailed for once.

[Vast_Halo]

I hope they are paying robin. That would be nice

I'd rather see them giving money to David Cockerell. It's his circuit designs that Wood has been working from for the last forty years.

[KSS]

I'm wondering if they will go with wood, seems a bit unlikely. Pressed bamboo might be an interesting option for them.

Well, they've already shown wood, and in the Far East wood can be free or next to it, as factories make their money on the fabrication. Malaysia was once offering free rubberwood to any mfr who would build a factory in their country. Malaysian rubberwood -and many other species- is far more forgiving -and less costly- than bamboo. It wouldn't make sense for Behringer as a low price mfr to use a more expensive raw mateial without *very* good reason. It might be interest-ing, but I doubt they'd be interest-ed.

[Voltcontrol]

I'm wondering if they will go with wood, seems a bit unlikely. Pressed bamboo might be an interesting option for them.

Well, they've already shown wood, and in the Far East wood can be free or next to it, as factories make their money on the fabrication. Malaysia was once offering free rubberwood to any mfr who would build a factory in their country. Malaysian rubberwood -and many other species- is far more forgiving -and less costly- than bamboo. It wouldn't make sense for Behringer as a low price mfr to use a more expensive raw mateial without *very* good reason. It might be interest-ing, but I doubt they'd be interest-ed.

Poor Asian forests. :(

[kons]

Poor Asian forests. :(

well avoid eating anything with palm oil in it then. that is what is destroying asian forests. having a viable economic use for sustainably grown tropical woods is not the problem for asian forests.

rubber trees are not in any way native to malaysian forests...

[KSS]

Has Beh made a good matrix,

The pins of theit matrix are *much* shorter than Sealectro and Ghilmetti. The matrix itself also uses narrower metal strips due to this. How much this affects ease and fell of patching will be smething for early purchasers to weigh in on.

Here's photos of the sealectro pins and then Behringers pins in the matrix, then their matrix interior and then their pins.

The behringer matrix copies the Ghilmetti style contacts. Sealectro is a different arrangement.

Edit: added a photo of Ghilmetti pins. Forum adds later photos to top, so that's where it now sits.

[KSS]

The short pins will affect patching ease because one often leans in between existing pins, using the long pin as a guide, straightening it up as it's inserted. The ultra short pins of the B-Matrix won't allow this as they're shorter than the patchpin body.
edit
I hope people notice this is not any kind of B-shaming. It is showing actual shortcomings -literally!- and realities behind one of the most important aspects of this synth. Its unique patching system. With a Sealectro or Ghilmetti the long pin allows you to hold the patch pin securely between your fingers, aim the tip between a possibly densely patched area of the matrix -while still holding it between your fingers, and then rocking it vertical as it goes in.

Compare that to what you'll have to do with the short pin end of the B matrix. It's going to be a very different experience. Especially on stage or with poor light or less than nimble fingers

[paperCUT]

Whatever they choose the build quality cant as horrendous as the original units. Mains wiring with wire as thin as it's possible to solder onto, poorly constructed case, cheap ass multiturn pot adapters...

[KSS]

Here are some Ghilmetti contact strips salvaged from a non-EMS synth. But still the same size and curvature as EMS uses.
And here is an inside look at the different contact arrangement of the original EMS matrix made by Sealectro.

[Kent]

a vcs3 clone poses an interesting dilemma. according to the karma police its not ok to copy things that are being still produced by the originator - which is the case. but how amoral is it to copy something where the originator cannot keep up with the demand because he insists on building it exactly like in the 60s. how amoral is it to copy things that are artificially being kept rare for whatever reason? hang drums? id like to know.

I think that we can draw the line at expiring protections granted by governing bodies. Nothing else really makes much sense in terms of being actionable. This applies to patents, trade dress, etc.

Better ideas?

[dgl]

Whatever they choose the build quality cant as horrendous as the original units. Mains wiring with wire as thin as it's possible to solder onto, poorly constructed case, cheap ass multiturn pot adapters...

Yeah, I wonder how many people think they are proper multi-turn pots when in fact they are just cheapo pots with a multi-turn knob on them.

[mrbloor]

Absolutely nobody has a god given right to own a vcs3, I'd like to drive an a/c cobra but know I won't.

Equally Robin Wood does not have a god given inherent right to decide who is worthy of joining the VCS3 owners club in perpetuity.

Hilarious answer, I think he has the legal right to his inheritance & the right to run his business however he likes. Not everyone wants to jump on the large scale manufacture, capitalist, model. If we lived in a communist society we wouldn't expect to own a car, we'd have to work hard, toe the party line & we might just earn enough tokens to be allowed to buy one.
No one is worthy of anything, I chose not to earn enough money to buy one & I'm totally ok with that, I don't go all medieval and grab a pitchfork & demand someone make an affordable one, the world doesn't need my latest EMS VCS3 release, maybe I'm in a minority.

[Bobby]

Pretty sure theres a thread dedicated to behringer arguing already. Let stay on point people. Is cv and gate control possible using the 2 inputs and the pin matrix on the original?

[cnicht]

If the matrix has been buffered it may be possible to inject into the matrix but signals may be inverted.

[aquifer]

Whatever they choose the build quality cant as horrendous as the original units. Mains wiring with wire as thin as it's possible to solder onto, poorly constructed case, cheap ass multiturn pot adapters...

Very true. Reminds me of 1950's Fender Telecasters - cheap parts, off the shelf electrics soldered by middle aged women, bolt on necks. I really feel for any guitarists who are unlucky enough to have one

[mrbloor]

Whatever they choose the build quality cant as horrendous as the original units. Mains wiring with wire as thin as it's possible to solder onto, poorly constructed case, cheap ass multiturn pot adapters...

Very true. Reminds me of 1950's Fender Telecasters - cheap parts, off the shelf electrics soldered by middle aged women, bolt on necks. I really feel for any guitarists who are unlucky enough to have one

Yes, I'm sure Behringer won't be employing any 'middle aged women', what have they ever contributed to the world?

[a100user]

Having used the VCS3 at the old Electronic Music Studio at Morley Collage in London whilst attend an Electro Acoustic composition course I have fond memories (which are probably cloudy) of this synth. If Behringer get it at least 80% sound wise i will get one for sure.

Long story short, that was my VCS3 originally....

That is very cool. Morley had two VCS3’s (maybe three) plus some of the standalone EMS units. Man I loved going there one evening a week, it was also where I discovered Metasynth.

[anselmi]

Just gone on FB. Is it me or is there no CV/gate inputs?

I'll be out if that's the case.

it´s aint that kind of party

[gruebleengourd]

If the matrix has been buffered it may be possible to inject into the matrix but signals may be inverted.

The matrix better not be buffered. What's the point otherwise?

[Hyberus]

The thing we have to remember is that people have been cloning the VCS3 for a long time.

Wind the clock back to the summer of 1978: an older mate of mine, who was seriously into Gong, Hawkwind, Zorch etc. bought a VCS3 clone made by a company called Selidor, which I believe had something to do with Roy Gwinn, of later Gristlizer fame.

I can't find anything online about these, so I wonder how many were made/sold. It was the first synth I had some serious hands-on time with, at the tender age of 14.

[dgl]

Of course, in reference to the poor build quality of the original units, the VCS 3 was significantly cheaper than it's rivals so the cheap parts can be excused somewhat, I guess that the reason why it's so unstable. At least I don't believe Behringer could use worse quality components than the original, would be nice to have proper multi turn potentiometers than the fako ones on teh original.

[ersatzplanet]

Whatever they choose the build quality cant as horrendous as the original units. Mains wiring with wire as thin as it's possible to solder onto, poorly constructed case, cheap ass multiturn pot adapters...

Yeah, I wonder how many people think they are proper multi-turn pots when in fact they are just cheapo pots with a multi-turn knob on them.

The original Synthi's all used vernier knobs and not multi-turn pots. It is all up to the type of pot used - plastic or carbon.

[ersatzplanet]

If the matrix has been buffered it may be possible to inject into the matrix but signals may be inverted.

The matrix is definitely not buffered. To do that correctly, you would need a connection for every cross-point and not horizontal and vertical busses like their matrix does.

As far as injecting into the matrix, with the correct pins with wires on them, this should be possible. Level matching will be a bitch though. If they made it like the original, there are NO input attenuation in the modules, only output attenuation. The signals injected would have to be level controlled outside the matrix.

[ersatzplanet]

Whatever they choose the build quality cant as horrendous as the original units. Mains wiring with wire as thin as it's possible to solder onto, poorly constructed case, cheap ass multiturn pot adapters...

Very true. Reminds me of 1950's Fender Telecasters - cheap parts, off the shelf electrics soldered by middle aged women, bolt on necks. I really feel for any guitarists who are unlucky enough to have one

I guess it depends on what year your "original" was made. My first VCS3 and my two AKS's bought in the late 70's and early 80's, were works of art inside. All wiring was cable wrapped and routed perfectly. All solder joints had heat shrink on them. The things were VERY labor intensive. I am sure that these new Behringer ones are all PCB mounted parts and edges connectors and ribbon cables. I doubt that there is very much hand wiring at all in them.

[ersatzplanet]

Just gone on FB. Is it me or is there no CV/gate inputs?

I'll be out if that's the case.

it´s aint that kind of party

The originals didn't have them either. Remember the originals also had 0.32V/octave cv control.