A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

[teleport]

I can relate to the general lament of OP's - todays designs, while very capable do seem to miss the mark on certain scores that seemed fundamental in the first generation of inter-connectable music sequencer equipment, from before the long winter of MIDI that was wrought by the seemingly indomitable hegemony of the PC DAW that scared all the original generation of creators out of the market. (noting that the music making market then and the anticipated-near-future market assumptions of then vs. today then look a fair bit different, presumably leading to different types of business calculations).

I started out using an MMT8 to sequence various midi capable pieces (when you could pick them up cheap new on blow-out near the end of their run in the late 90's) - totally loved it and agree there are things it had going for workflow that are hard to match with contemporary pieces, (partly due to it's immediacy of top-level controls, but also due to the limited depth (the manual was printed on the "lid") - ultimately though the fatal flaw was it's tendency to randomly lose it's brains on every n-th power up, (lost a lot of material that way, sigh .. . (and don't even mention JAZ disks)).

Have explored the gamut of 80s/90s including the QX1 and the ASQ-10, an MPC, the EMU Command Station and probably had the longest stable and most productive relationship with the RM1X, using floppy disks gets pretty old these days.

Song mode pretty much always meant shifting the system into some less versatile state - either full editing wasn't directly accessible and/or the controls suddenly had different functions - I don't find that kind of modal behavior very much fun, it trashes the muscle memory aspect that makes hardware so valuable in the first place.

Without some sort of deep graphical interface I think managing the amount of data to present and complexity that composition requires is always going to be difficult. Pretty sure most of us who subject ourselves to composing using hardware boxes are willing to confront those compromises in order to not have to deal with the severe timing issues that modern computer OS's have, or having internet and an interface made for spreadsheets and IT admins.

I think that the runaway success of Abelton in many ways brought about the death of advancing MIDI networked equipment in most mainstream MI companies development budgets due to it being very good and immediate for creating tracks as a single application internally and failing to properly accommodate the peer-to-peer device synchronization that is foundational to the MIDI architecture. (of course that left a market opening for boutique outfits like electron).

Figuring out how to make a cohesive system that is powerful, intuitive and has the ability to present enough musical information intelligibly to compose entire tracks on in hardware requires an enormous combination of tech and manufacturing knowhow (beyond just putting text on LCD character displays), and probably implies conducting some really deep research into human machine interface to execute well. There's a no-go condition there where any company that had the wherewithal to pull it off is not going to because they need greater returns to operate than would be reasonable to anticipate from such an undertaking.

Ultimately I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to expect a single box to do it all - (I get it - having one box to compose with is tidy and doesn't require scattered handwritten notes to document all the fragments that form a track, and doesn't suffer from the same irrecoverability of material when that one element inevitably leaves the constellation of gear).

On the multitimbral thing though? - tons of 80s/90s digital synths are multitimbral - the later part of the Yamaha FM's the TG/SY77 & 99, the Waldorf XT's and Q's etc.

So I think it is interesting to question why the market has apparently shifted away from things that once seemed like standard assumptions - one possible explanation is that in the "old days" the presumed market wasn't so much focused on gearheads making weird electronic music and techno - it was media industry folks, people making commercials and TV and film scores who needed versatile equipment that interfaced well with what was already in the studio.

[GrantB]

The big three all still make old school song mode MIDI sequencers, they just come with powerful multitimbral synths tacked on. So... yeah.

[anselmi]

about the state of tech 2020: SAMPLERS

features are ridiculous in most cases...RAM, read direct from card/HD, stereo sampling, polyphony/chromatic play, layering, transfer/backup to computer...all this stuff was covered by most late 90s samplers but now it seems to be a luxury set of features that just a few instruments provide

[JES]

Yeah, even in software, there are surprisingly few samplers that....sample.

[ym2612]

I stopped waiting on a Cirklon and built a MIDIBox Seq V4.

[onthebandwagon]

[tioJim]

The Shadow knows

[tioJim]

The big three all still make old school song mode MIDI sequencers, they just come with powerful multitimbral synths tacked on. So... yeah.

That's a good point

Kronos and Fantom have visual, linear DAW-like sequencers and from the latest OS Montage/MODX have more obtuse but very capable pattern sequencers with pattern chaining for songs

[dubonaire]

about the state of tech 2020: SAMPLERS

features are ridiculous in most cases...RAM, read direct from card/HD, stereo sampling, polyphony/chromatic play, layering, transfer/backup to computer...all this stuff was covered by most late 90s samplers but now it seems to be a luxury set of features that just a few instruments provide

Oddly enough the Toraiz SP-16 has most of those features.

[Peng33]

It has been mentioned already, but the Squarp Pyramid seems to fit the bill. Have one coming in the mail this week...the last hardware sequencer I used was a Yamaha QY-300, which was amazingly versatile and a great little device, but with very minimal RAM. Was in storage for years and the floppy drive no longer works when I pulled it out recently, so I decided to upgrade to a Pyramid.

https://squarp.net/pyramid

[dubonaire]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

[slumberjack]

Few years back there were not much samplers around - now there are plenty...multitimbral are quite few around too, not only Nord and Access. The general innovation is quite around for FX pedals too and someone just dropped a tracker groovebox. Even in proper studio gear there's development beside the old gold, LouderThanLIftOff comes to my mind.

I somehow feel the OP but the world out there proves my otherwise. But then: What could be done better or more? There are even VR projects happening and AI is on the rise (brrr...). What would be an answers to these questions? I may have some deep thoughts about the topic while there's a severe fear growing the mice run this and in the every equation leads to 42.

Stay positive! We're living in synth heaven IMHO today.

[Nelson Baboon]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

i've used most of the high end sequencers, and I just don't think that you can claim that one is the best. I personally like the schrittmacher for pure step sequencing, and while the work flow of the pyramid is not really my thing, it's recording capabilities, and its cv to midi beat the cirklon. I can see why people like the cirklon, but unfortunately many buy it because they hear it's 'the best' and they never use the aux events, which to me are what really distinguish it.

[Uncle Meatball]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

i've used most of the high end sequencers, and I just don't think that you can claim that one is the best. I personally like the schrittmacher for pure step sequencing, and while the work flow of the pyramid is not really my thing, it's recording capabilities, and its cv to midi beat the cirklon. I can see why people like the cirklon, but unfortunately many buy it because they hear it's 'the best' and they never use the aux events, which to me are what really distinguish it.

What do you make of the numerology/launchpad combo, if you’ve ever tried it out? The schrittmacher looks great but somewhat out of my reach at the moment. Numerology looks like a fully realised version of what the early maxpatch sequencers for the monome were trying to achieve but without all the reliability issues, and the launchpad offers a similar physical interface.

[oscilloscope]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

Especially if one is ready to spend over twice as much as a Pyramid, and wait 2-3 years to hopefully receive the fabled Cirklon. How much music could have been be created, how much sequencing knowledge/skills could have been developed during these 2-3 years spent waiting, checking for an email by Sequentix ?

I have a hardware studio and Pyramid is smoothly piloting all this. Maybe those who are still into extensive modular could/would benefit from a Cirklon.

[Nelson Baboon]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

i've used most of the high end sequencers, and I just don't think that you can claim that one is the best. I personally like the schrittmacher for pure step sequencing, and while the work flow of the pyramid is not really my thing, it's recording capabilities, and its cv to midi beat the cirklon. I can see why people like the cirklon, but unfortunately many buy it because they hear it's 'the best' and they never use the aux events, which to me are what really distinguish it.

What do you make of the numerology/launchpad combo, if you’ve ever tried it out? The schrittmacher looks great but somewhat out of my reach at the moment. Numerology looks like a fully realised version of what the early maxpatch sequencers for the monome were trying to achieve but without all the reliability issues, and the launchpad offers a similar physical interface.

yes. I'm not entirely objective on the matter, meaning that my preference is more than simply a feature for feature and work flow comparison. I simply don't like setting up sequences on the computer.

That said, I own and have often turned to Numerology. I have mixed feelings about the combo with launchpad. As I recall, you have a limited feature set while using the launchpad, but it's pretty cool nonetheless.The Vector (based on numerology) is certainly one of the better sequencers around.

[Nelson Baboon]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

Especially if one is ready to spend over twice as much as a Pyramid, and wait 2-3 years to hopefully receive the fabled Cirklon. How much music could have been be created, how much sequencing knowledge/skills could have been developed during these 2-3 years spent waiting, checking for an email by Sequentix ?

I have a hardware studio and Pyramid is smoothly piloting all this. Maybe those who are still into extensive modular could/would benefit from a Cirklon.

i've always preferred an actual analog modular sequencer in a modular environment. midi sequencers are constrained in various ways, usually regarding tempo and tempo modulation. While these are not always useful, it's nice to have them.

[Red Electric Rainbow]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

Especially if one is ready to spend over twice as much as a Pyramid, and wait 2-3 years to hopefully receive the fabled Cirklon. How much music could have been be created, how much sequencing knowledge/skills could have been developed during these 2-3 years spent waiting, checking for an email by Sequentix ?

I have a hardware studio and Pyramid is smoothly piloting all this. Maybe those who are still into extensive modular could/would benefit from a Cirklon.

you have to assume that someone waiting for a cirklon is testing out other sequencers while they wait. i cant think that someone would just put everything on hold during that time frame

[Voltcontrol]

Most Sequencer Nerds have a top 3 or top 5 I'd wager.

[Peng33]

Eh. I currently have a small 84 HP (Nifty case) Eurorack setup, a BSP, a Minibrute 2, a Microfreak, a Koma pedal, a Squaver pedal (both semi-modular), a Multimoog, a Korg DW8000 and a rack mount Kurzweil K2000. Not big on step sequencing (now that the Pyramid is on the way, I am gonna use the BSP as a dedicated drum sequencer...the 8 outputs for drums work nicely with my Simmons SDS 800).

Basically, I think instead of investing upwards of another $1000-2000 in modular for sequencing, I figured I would be better off buying a used Pyramid for $500 and incorporate it with the devices I already own.

[phesago]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

Especially if one is ready to spend over twice as much as a Pyramid, and wait 2-3 years to hopefully receive the fabled Cirklon. How much music could have been be created, how much sequencing knowledge/skills could have been developed during these 2-3 years spent waiting, checking for an email by Sequentix ?

I have a hardware studio and Pyramid is smoothly piloting all this. Maybe those who are still into extensive modular could/would benefit from a Cirklon.

you have to assume that someone waiting for a cirklon is testing out other sequencers while they wait. i cant think that someone would just put everything on hold during that time frame

yeah absolutely not right? Lets just blackhole up to 3 years with having done nothing lol

[Peng33]

It is possible that someone cannot afford $700-800, and then another $1300-$1400 (or how ever much Cirklons cost) a few years later. Curious...when you get on the fabled list for a Cirklon, do you have to pay upfront, or do you pay when it is your "turn"?

[Lokua]

Cirklon what the fuck. I can't remember how long I've been on the waiting list.

If the demand is such that people are waiting years, how can you not afford to hire more help? It's electronics not rocket science. ANYWAY.

When is Behringer going to give us a Birklon?

People saying there is no demand for hardware sequencers: where is your evidence of this?

[Voltcontrol]

a Birklon?

A BIRKLON.
That word! Best laugh I've had in weeks.

[continuum]

People saying there is no demand for hardware sequencers: where is your evidence of this?

Monthly, quarterly and annual sales data. For the expense of development and maintenance, sequencers are a money losing proposition.