A bit of a rant. State of tech in 2020.

[flashheart]

right - the point being that there were certainly multitimbral synths back then.

the way the quotes below read it makes it seem like the opposite?

? the xpander was multimbral. would have to think hard about others.

We never really had multimtimbral 'synthesisers' in the 80s/90s, we had workstations many of which could be used for synthesis, but mostly weren't.

right - he's saying that there were NOT multimbral synths back then, and I said that there WERE multimbral synths back then.

I didn't mean multitimbral synths didn't exist, my argument was that they were mostly not used for 'synthesis' as such, more likely as a 'band in a box'. Clearly there were people using them as synths, just a small minority.

One other thing, developing new products not based on incremental versions of existing products takes time and money, the expectation now from customers is to pay a fraction (in real terms) of what they used to, so there's way less money around for companies to R&D a completely new product. The market is way more demanding now as the real enthusiasts have access to the entire history of synths/sequencers to compare and endlessly debate.
The GS sampler thread is a case in point, the OP suggested what they wanted (just like the 90s...) and of course everybody chimes in with their favourite feature request... After 10 pages it would have been capable of cooking your breakfast, initiating world peace and curing cancer - all for less than $500 of course. .

As for song form sequencers, buy a workstation seems to be the answer - can be used as a multitimbral synth as well I'd wager.

Stay positive! We're living in synth heaven IMHO today.

[tioJim]

when it is your "turn"?

that one ^^^

[dubonaire]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

Especially if one is ready to spend over twice as much as a Pyramid, and wait 2-3 years to hopefully receive the fabled Cirklon. How much music could have been be created, how much sequencing knowledge/skills could have been developed during these 2-3 years spent waiting, checking for an email by Sequentix ?

I have a hardware studio and Pyramid is smoothly piloting all this. Maybe those who are still into extensive modular could/would benefit from a Cirklon.

Cirklons are shipping again. The company had a terrible run of problems for a while. They have shipped a first run of fifty and the next run is due to ship this month. So hopefully the long waits become history.

I had to wait a year, so I used other sequencing options in the meantime. But the recent unavailability is not a reason to compare sequencers on technical terms.

[dubonaire]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

i've used most of the high end sequencers, and I just don't think that you can claim that one is the best. I personally like the schrittmacher for pure step sequencing, and while the work flow of the pyramid is not really my thing, it's recording capabilities, and its cv to midi beat the cirklon. I can see why people like the cirklon, but unfortunately many buy it because they hear it's 'the best' and they never use the aux events, which to me are what really distinguish it.

I don't know how many people buy the Cirklon and don't use aux events and I don't know how anyone could really know the numbers. I don't really see what that has to do with anything anyway. Certainly members on the Sequentix forum use Aux events and there is a Facebook user group called Sequentix Cirklon Aux Event Archive with 175 members. But I think there are many things which distinguish it.

I take your point about not being able to claim one is the best. I think that is fair to say. I did say especially if you have a hardware studio and modular because nothing comes close to the MIDI, CV, gate and trigger I/O of the Cirklon and its timing is excellent. I don't really understand the recording aspect. Cirklon is great to record into and (as I understand it unlike the Pyramid) you can be in step mode and record mode at the same time. And the options for routing MIDI controllers through the Cirklon are incredibly flexible. So easy to control any of my hardware with one or many MIDI controllers and record at the same time. You can put 5 or more controllers into the thing and route them anywhere with ease. Plus I have 16 CV and 8 gates into the modular, and if I got the drum mux I could have another 16 triggers all with accents as well. That's a lot of sequencing.

CV to MIDI is on the todo list, but I think most people use Cirklon as the centrepiece of the studio rather than as a slave.

[Nelson Baboon]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

i've used most of the high end sequencers, and I just don't think that you can claim that one is the best. I personally like the schrittmacher for pure step sequencing, and while the work flow of the pyramid is not really my thing, it's recording capabilities, and its cv to midi beat the cirklon. I can see why people like the cirklon, but unfortunately many buy it because they hear it's 'the best' and they never use the aux events, which to me are what really distinguish it.

I don't know how many people buy the Cirklon and don't use aux events and I don't know how anyone could really know the numbers. I don't really see what that has to do with anything anyway. Certainly members on the Sequentix forum use Aux events and there is a Facebook user group called Sequentix Cirklon Aux Event Archive with 175 members. But I think there are many things which distinguish it.

I take your point about not being able to claim one is the best. I think that is fair to say. I did say especially if you have a hardware studio and modular because nothing comes close to the MIDI, CV, gate and trigger I/O of the Cirklon and its timing is excellent. I don't really understand the recording aspect. Cirklon is great to record into and (as I understand it unlike the Pyramid) you can be in step mode and record mode at the same time. And the options for routing MIDI controllers through the Cirklon are incredibly flexible. So easy to control any of my hardware with one or many MIDI controllers. You can put 5 or more controllers into the thing and route them anywhere with ease. Plus I have 16CV and 8 gates into the modular, and if I got the drum mux I could have 16 triggers with accents as well. That's a lot of sequencing.

CV to MIDI is on the todo list, but I think most people use Cirklon as the centrepiece of the studio rather than as a slave.

I didn't say that I "know the numbers". This is my impression, obviously. I've seen lots of posts by people, and heard lots of tracks with simple midi sequences that obviously don't use aux events very much.

I didn't say that it wasn't a good sequencer.

I'm just so fucking sick of this shit. I think my point is pretty clear, and i just have no interest in arguing with you.

[dubonaire]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

i've used most of the high end sequencers, and I just don't think that you can claim that one is the best. I personally like the schrittmacher for pure step sequencing, and while the work flow of the pyramid is not really my thing, it's recording capabilities, and its cv to midi beat the cirklon. I can see why people like the cirklon, but unfortunately many buy it because they hear it's 'the best' and they never use the aux events, which to me are what really distinguish it.

I don't know how many people buy the Cirklon and don't use aux events and I don't know how anyone could really know the numbers. I don't really see what that has to do with anything anyway. Certainly members on the Sequentix forum use Aux events and there is a Facebook user group called Sequentix Cirklon Aux Event Archive with 175 members. But I think there are many things which distinguish it.

I take your point about not being able to claim one is the best. I think that is fair to say. I did say especially if you have a hardware studio and modular because nothing comes close to the MIDI, CV, gate and trigger I/O of the Cirklon and its timing is excellent. I don't really understand the recording aspect. Cirklon is great to record into and (as I understand it unlike the Pyramid) you can be in step mode and record mode at the same time. And the options for routing MIDI controllers through the Cirklon are incredibly flexible. So easy to control any of my hardware with one or many MIDI controllers. You can put 5 or more controllers into the thing and route them anywhere with ease. Plus I have 16CV and 8 gates into the modular, and if I got the drum mux I could have 16 triggers with accents as well. That's a lot of sequencing.

CV to MIDI is on the todo list, but I think most people use Cirklon as the centrepiece of the studio rather than as a slave.

I didn't say that I "know the numbers". This is my impression, obviously. I've seen lots of posts by people.

I didn't say that it wasn't a good sequencer.

I'm just so fucking sick of this shit. I think my point is pretty clear, and i just have no interest in arguing with you.

[Lokua]

People saying there is no demand for hardware sequencers: where is your evidence of this?

Monthly, quarterly and annual sales data. For the expense of development and maintenance, sequencers are a money losing proposition.

Well, you do have R&D in your signature! Why do you think that is? If sales aren't high enough to justify the real cost, then I question why sales aren't high enough. Is it really just that there isn't enough demand, or does some of it go back to the OP? I mean for me it absolutely goes back to the OP. A lot of sequencers I've seen over the years seem half assed, niche, or designed for entry level enthusiasts (No talent? No money? No PROBLEM! Our patented Extreme Groove Slider with Sour Cream technology will have you quitting music altogether in No time!)

[Uncle Meatball]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

i've used most of the high end sequencers, and I just don't think that you can claim that one is the best. I personally like the schrittmacher for pure step sequencing, and while the work flow of the pyramid is not really my thing, it's recording capabilities, and its cv to midi beat the cirklon. I can see why people like the cirklon, but unfortunately many buy it because they hear it's 'the best' and they never use the aux events, which to me are what really distinguish it.

I don't know how many people buy the Cirklon and don't use aux events and I don't know how anyone could really know the numbers. I don't really see what that has to do with anything anyway. Certainly members on the Sequentix forum use Aux events and there is a Facebook user group called Sequentix Cirklon Aux Event Archive with 175 members. But I think there are many things which distinguish it.

I take your point about not being able to claim one is the best. I think that is fair to say. I did say especially if you have a hardware studio and modular because nothing comes close to the MIDI, CV, gate and trigger I/O of the Cirklon and its timing is excellent. I don't really understand the recording aspect. Cirklon is great to record into and (as I understand it unlike the Pyramid) you can be in step mode and record mode at the same time. And the options for routing MIDI controllers through the Cirklon are incredibly flexible. So easy to control any of my hardware with one or many MIDI controllers. You can put 5 or more controllers into the thing and route them anywhere with ease. Plus I have 16CV and 8 gates into the modular, and if I got the drum mux I could have 16 triggers with accents as well. That's a lot of sequencing.

CV to MIDI is on the todo list, but I think most people use Cirklon as the centrepiece of the studio rather than as a slave.

I didn't say that I "know the numbers". This is my impression, obviously. I've seen lots of posts by people.

I didn't say that it wasn't a good sequencer.

I'm just so fucking sick of this shit. I think my point is pretty clear, and i just have no interest in arguing with you.

You boomers really need to chill

[dubonaire]

Squarp Pyramid is great but Cirklon reigns supreme, especially if you have a hardware studio and modular.

i've used most of the high end sequencers, and I just don't think that you can claim that one is the best. I personally like the schrittmacher for pure step sequencing, and while the work flow of the pyramid is not really my thing, it's recording capabilities, and its cv to midi beat the cirklon. I can see why people like the cirklon, but unfortunately many buy it because they hear it's 'the best' and they never use the aux events, which to me are what really distinguish it.

I don't know how many people buy the Cirklon and don't use aux events and I don't know how anyone could really know the numbers. I don't really see what that has to do with anything anyway. Certainly members on the Sequentix forum use Aux events and there is a Facebook user group called Sequentix Cirklon Aux Event Archive with 175 members. But I think there are many things which distinguish it.

I take your point about not being able to claim one is the best. I think that is fair to say. I did say especially if you have a hardware studio and modular because nothing comes close to the MIDI, CV, gate and trigger I/O of the Cirklon and its timing is excellent. I don't really understand the recording aspect. Cirklon is great to record into and (as I understand it unlike the Pyramid) you can be in step mode and record mode at the same time. And the options for routing MIDI controllers through the Cirklon are incredibly flexible. So easy to control any of my hardware with one or many MIDI controllers. You can put 5 or more controllers into the thing and route them anywhere with ease. Plus I have 16CV and 8 gates into the modular, and if I got the drum mux I could have 16 triggers with accents as well. That's a lot of sequencing.

CV to MIDI is on the todo list, but I think most people use Cirklon as the centrepiece of the studio rather than as a slave.

I didn't say that I "know the numbers". This is my impression, obviously. I've seen lots of posts by people.

I didn't say that it wasn't a good sequencer.

I'm just so fucking sick of this shit. I think my point is pretty clear, and i just have no interest in arguing with you.

You boomers really need to chill

If anyone bothered to read this exchange, including the baboon, they would see Nelson Baboon disagreed with me and I replied by saying "I take your point about not being able to claim one is the best." It's not me that needs to chill.

[Uncle Meatball]

Dude it was just a joke.

[dubonaire]

Dude it was just a joke.

Dude, I didn't find it funny.

[helix]

(No talent? No money? No PROBLEM! Our patented Extreme Groove Slider with Sour Cream technology will have you quitting music altogether in No time!)

[Uncle Meatball]

Dude it was just a joke.

Dude, I didn't find it funny.

Was it the boomer part? I’m sorry...

[ahmo]

Multitimbral maybe wasn’t used by everybody, but a lot of synths featured it, even the yamaha TX line with multiple DX-7’s in a rack that was mentioned speaks to the demand, while not as high as just needing a keyboard with a bunch of sounds, people getting deep were wanting it. The OB 2-4-8 voice seems to have started it, but later preset enabled synths and samplers it became a valuable feature.
These days with proper digital pianos and what not, it seems odd that DSI and others don’t allow youbto use a patch on each voice if you want to, aince the market is synth heads who go deeper into the functions than someone wanting a band in a box, as you say. Perhaps the loss of sales from not being multitimbral is not worth the risk or cost of implementing it, and that many people buying synths have several synths, not like when the cost was greater and such a feature would save you multitracking or buying several synths.

[slumberjack]

Multitimbral maybe wasn’t used by everybody, but a lot of synths featured it, even the yamaha TX line with multiple DX-7’s in a rack that was mentioned speaks to the demand, while not as high as just needing a keyboard with a bunch of sounds, people getting deep were wanting it. The OB 2-4-8 voice seems to have started it, but later preset enabled synths and samplers it became a valuable feature.
These days with proper digital pianos and what not, it seems odd that DSI and others don’t allow youbto use a patch on each voice if you want to, aince the market is synth heads who go deeper into the functions than someone wanting a band in a box, as you say. Perhaps the loss of sales from not being multitimbral is not worth the risk or cost of implementing it, and that many people buying synths have several synths, not like when the cost was greater and such a feature would save you multitracking or buying several synths.

The P'08 is bitimbral but I don't know about the others.

[ahmo]

So is the Jupiter-8, the CS 80, not as flexible but something.

The P-08 being bitimbral is a compromise, and pretty much what we are talking about here.

I guess the last synth from a major maker to have full multitimbrality is the Andromeda, with individual outs although implemented in a weird way. I could be wrong.

[tioJim]

Dude it was just a joke.

Dude, I didn't find it funny.

Was it the boomer part? I’m sorry...

We're all ZOOM-ers now

[rens]

I totally dont get this thread w/r/t sequencers. Were spoilt for choice

Why does the engine not get more love? It has song mode.
Pyramid has seq mode which is basically song mode (but not useful for seamless ‘whole set’)
Deluge has 2 song mode (song and arranger) and seamless switching.
Mpcs. Maschine. cirklon.

So many sequencers.

Make some music.

[slumberjack]

I think the Kyra would have been a choice if I would feel the need of expanding the multitimbral synths I own at the moment. But yeah who am I to judge what technology and where a market is or isn't and should instead rather make music with my toys than doing the interwebs things.
At least I'm happy with the products I'm using and there are still lots of nice pieces of gear to buy - new and old and yet to be developed.

[ahmo]

All that to not admit you misstated or were wrong...

Multitimbral isn’t important to you but they were certainly around in the 80s and 90s, even the most popular like access virus had it, so hardly easy to miss. To minimize the general value of it to backpedal from your statement doesn’t make sense.

OK make music then.

[dubonaire]

Dude it was just a joke.

Dude, I didn't find it funny.

Was it the boomer part? I’m sorry...

Sorry man, I just got frustrated trying to have a civil conversation... the threads pretty silly anyway.

[Nelson Baboon]

Dude it was just a joke.

Dude, I didn't find it funny.

Was it the boomer part? I’m sorry...

Sorry man, I just got frustrated trying to have a civil conversation... the threads pretty silly anyway.

Your conditions for what you call a civil conversation are that you know more than everyone else, which is just not a condition that I accept.

[slumberjack]

All that to not admit you misstated or were wrong...

Multitimbral isn’t important to you but they were certainly around in the 80s and 90s, even the most popular like access virus had it, so hardly easy to miss. To minimize the general value of it to backpedal from your statement doesn’t make sense.

OK make music then.

There is no right or wrong when in this because subsumption of the state of art (tech) is a subjective POV because we are all different in what we want to make music. I do use multitimbral synths (and samplers), new and old, some with stereo out and others have outputs for each voice. I don't use drum machines so these synths are essential for me. The modular is more like the playground for me but the Nord has been the backbone for me since 10 years, and newer a Monomachine, EPS, DX11 are added and yeah with the P'08 I always felt the bitimbral feature is rather useful than a limitation.

[dubonaire]

Dude it was just a joke.

Dude, I didn't find it funny.

Was it the boomer part? I’m sorry...

Sorry man, I just got frustrated trying to have a civil conversation... the threads pretty silly anyway.

Your conditions for what you call a civil conversation are that you know more than everyone else, which is just not a condition that I accept.

Did you completely miss the bit, twice because I repeated it, where I wrote "I take your point about not being able to claim one is the best. I think that is fair to say"? I then went on to explain why I think it is arguably the best for the case of a hardware studio with multiple devices, where it is most often used and valued. I also challenged your assumption about many people not using auxes because that's not my impression when it comes to serious users. You really need to stop tediously turning every conversation into an imaginary battle for superiority. You are so blinkered by this you can't even see it when I tell you you are right and I was wrong.

Anyway, this thread is just a whinge fest by people who think gear manufacturers can just will equipment into existence for profit so I'm out.

[Nelson Baboon]

Dude it was just a joke.

Dude, I didn't find it funny.

Was it the boomer part? I’m sorry...

Sorry man, I just got frustrated trying to have a civil conversation... the threads pretty silly anyway.

Your conditions for what you call a civil conversation are that you know more than everyone else, which is just not a condition that I accept.

Did you completely miss the bit, twice because I repeated it, where I wrote "I take your point about not being able to claim one is the best. I think that is fair to say"? I then went on to explain why I think it is arguably the best for the case of a hardware studio with multiple devices, where it is most often used and valued. I also challenged your assumption about many people not using auxes because that's not my impression when it comes to serious users. You really need to stop tediously turning every conversation into an imaginary battle for superiority. You are so blinkered by this you can't even see it when I tell you you are right and I was wrong.

Anyway, this thread is just a whinge fest by people who think gear manufacturers can just will equipment into existence for profit so I'm out.

yes. i did see your comment.