Catalyst Audio Buchla 100 clones for Eurorack

Kent · Post by **Kent** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:15 pm

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Synesthesia wrote:Is there any kind of licensing around this ?

Through hole is mentionned in the video ... will there be diy options ?
Even if there is, fuck nu-BEMI. They ripped off buchla and his family aren't going to be making money off of it if they pay for the license.

Post your evidence or keep your negativity restrained. Yeah, shit on the one (very troubled) company that is keeping the last of Don's legacy alive.

djangosfire · Post by **djangosfire** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 12:32 pm

My god these look amazing!!

ym2612 · Post by **ym2612** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:21 pm

Oh, I just noticed that the quad gate is a dual in the original 100. So these have more density! Cool.

Ebolatone · Post by **Ebolatone** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 1:32 pm

I've had DIY home-etch 100 Series projects up for years if anyone didn't know or enjoys building at home. Some of it goes back a few pages, a few years. ebolatone.blogspot.com They're all 4U excepting one dual 110 PCB. No mods are there for 12V use.

Synesthesia · Post by **Synesthesia** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:43 pm

I love your stuff Mr Peake

I would make some if i had a press for my drill

Synesthesia · Post by **Synesthesia** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:48 pm

mritenburg

CBS musical instruments held the rights to the 100 series. At one time CBS also owned the Fender brand and the Steinwsy brand. CBS sold off their music instrument division at one point, so at best, it's unclear who actually holds the rights to the 100 series. It's not BEMI and most likely not the Buchla family. Would it be cool to pay the Buchla family a license fee for using the 100 series schematics and panel designs? Sure, it would be cool, but they may not actually be entitled to those fees. So it's a tricky question.

Ahah! i didn't know that CBS got it! thanks for the info - very interested.

it is indeed tricky - What is the manufacturer's take on this before making a commercial line of euro modules ?

ym2612 · Post by **ym2612** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:09 pm

A good point of comparison is the Aion Moog Modular-inspired Euro modules. Same panel designs, same terminology, same circuits, same model numbers. Bob Moog is no longer with us (RIP). Moog Music hasn't taken any action against Aion, and is releasing their own modules in 5U and innovating in Eurorack. I don't think there's a need for extra delicacy when it comes to Buchla 100.

southphillysynths · Post by **southphillysynths** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:15 pm

Super Excited for these!

I've no hands on experience with clones of 100 stuff BUT that short namm video seems to be close to what youtube sound I've heard from the 158 crazy exp fm.

I love that they keep the original panel art, I think it is simply beautiful and the smaller but accurate looking knobs are fantastic!

Good point about the original bongos were not done with vactrols! I always forget that...

I would absolutely love if these were DIY as well, would really complete my dream for DIY Euro Serge/Buchla all in one case!

CatalystAudio · Post by **CatalystAudio** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:14 pm

Hey Guys,

Glad to see the interest.

*edited to remove the part where we talk about stuff we don't fully understand*

So on to the more technical stuff:

Yes, no vactrols. As was pointed out, vactrols were more of a 200 series thing, The early 100 series are for the most part built of nothing but transistors, resistors, capacitors and diodes. It's pretty amazing what you can do with just those components!

The signal levels are one part of the equation that I am still working out, the prototypes in the video were literally finished a few days before NAMM. So right now they are still running on the original signal levels. My goal is to get them as close to typical euro levels as possible without interfering with the sound or functionality in any way.

As far as the sound goes - Thats a very individual thing. IMO the 158 sounds fantastic and really shines when it's doing FM. The cross modulation is great and has a sound that (I think) is very unique to this series of oscillator. The rest of the modules are interesting as well, I don't know if I mentioned it in the videos, but all of these modules run off of only the positive rail and ground so every bipolar source (like audio) has to actually be biased upwards and then shifted back down via dc blocking capacitors. So this also gives things a different sound to my ear. Both the mixer and the VCA's tend to distort the signals and IMO are a big part of the sound of the instrument.

FWIW there were a couple of people who came by and played with the system that had or currently have access to an actual 100 system and said that it's sound and behaviour was indistinguishable to them. (Of course this was at NAMM and certainly not a very critical listening enviornment).

I was also able to get an invitation to use the 100 series at Mills college. So you can expect a lot of testing and comparing and videos when that happens.

As far as DIY versions go, we would like to do this eventually, But - if it does happen, it is likely to be a ways off at this point. Certainly not before we can get the first run built and out to distributers.

Or as posted above - Peake has alot of Buchla 100 series boards already laid out and ready for etching.

ym2612 · Post by **ym2612** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:21 pm

Sounds great

Ebolatone · Post by **Ebolatone** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:48 pm

I also build 4U 100 modules to order and can supply PCBs, panels, and rare parts for builders who don't home etch...This has sort of been my thing for a while now but I never had any intention of bringing it to Eurack.

CatalystAudio · Post by **CatalystAudio** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:59 pm

I can vouch for Peake's craftsmanship. Excellent builder, excellent wiggler.
The man knows his 100 series!

bwhittington · Post by **bwhittington** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:03 pm

SewerBadger wrote:the one (very troubled) company that is keeping the last of Don's legacy alive.

BEMI may be keeping his brand and most recent creation alive, but of course Don's fingerprints are on so many commercial and DIY module designs that his legacy needs little polishing. His designs are copied so often, he may be the most significant contributor to the modern modular revival.

I see your bigger point, of course. Just reflecting to myself on his significance.

joey · Post by **joey** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:59 pm

these look great! i'm happy somebody cloned the panels as well as the circuits - one of my favorite things about buchla is how they look, and a lot of the euro buchla clone stuff I see doesn't replicate the panels at all!

LaBelleAurore · Post by **LaBelleAurore** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:58 pm

CatalystAudio wrote:Is that circuits are not covered by copyright but their functionality can be covered by patent. In the US at least - patents expire after 20 years. So assuming that these modules were ever patented, they would be about 30 years beyond that point.

Schematics are, without a doubt, subject to copyright in the US. Copyright term lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years. If Don had not sold the 100 series to CBS, his copyright would still be good until 2086. Because Don sold to CBS and CBS sold their rights, someone out there does hold the rights to the 100 series schematics, and those rights will continue until 2086. Who that is remains a mystery.

coolshirtdotjpg · Post by **coolshirtdotjpg** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:29 pm

Synesthesia wrote:
Synesthesia wrote:
Is there any kind of licensing around this ?

Through hole is mentionned in the video ... will there be diy options ?

Even if there is, fuck nu-BEMI. They ripped off buchla and his family aren't going to be making money off of it if they pay for the license.
Well, Bemi is one thing - but surelly Don's familly is another...right ? we have seen things done properly with the Haible modules by Random Source ( and even Serge) , or MFOS.
Surely they should get something out of this ?

CatalystAudio
Yes ! I have questions
- will there be DIY versions ? [/b]

Oh I definitely agree! It would be great for his family to get a percentage. I just don't think that has to do with licensing at this point.

coolshirtdotjpg · Post by **coolshirtdotjpg** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:32 pm

SewerBadger wrote:
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
Synesthesia wrote:Is there any kind of licensing around this ?

Through hole is mentionned in the video ... will there be diy options ?
Even if there is, fuck nu-BEMI. They ripped off buchla and his family aren't going to be making money off of it if they pay for the license.
Post your evidence or keep your negativity restrained. Yeah, shit on the one (very troubled) company that is keeping the last of Don's legacy alive.

Here, let me google that for you: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Don+Buchla+Lawsuit

BTW, pretty sure Don's legacy is better served by companies like Make Noise and Verbos who actually bring their own ideas to the table, and sell them at a reasonable price than a company that ripped him off, and is now selling inferior products at high prices.

slow_riot · Post by **slow_riot** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:43 am

coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
BTW, pretty sure Don's legacy is better served by companies like Make Noise and Verbos who actually bring their own ideas to the table, and sell them at a reasonable price than a company that ripped him off, and is now selling inferior products at high prices.

You've got to be taking the piss? Buchla was a forward thinker and the only reason he didn't care about the endless clones of the 258 & 259 VCOs by everybody and his dog (Make Noise and Verbos both released near clones of these circuits without adding any innovation of note) was that he thought that the 50 year old design was not fit for sale and that people deserve better. I believe that was also one of the reasons he fell out with the folks at BEMI regarding re-releasing the Easel.

toppobrillo · Post by **toppobrillo** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:25 am

CatalystAudio wrote:Hey Guys,

Glad to see the interest.

So, first off to get the elephant out of the room.
These are not licensed in any way. My understanding (and I have no legal training so I could be wrong). Is that circuits are not covered by copyright but their functionality can be covered by patent. In the US at least - patents expire after 20 years. So assuming that these modules were ever patented, they would be about 30 years beyond that point.

I don't really see these as being conceptually any different than the AJH Moog modules, the Nava or Yocto, or any of the myriad of 303 clones that have been around over the past 20 years.

Anyway, we aren't trying to do anything unethical on purpose, and if someone has contact with the Buchla family we would certainly be happy to donate some percentage to Don's favorite charity or something like that.

So on to the more technical stuff:

Yes, no vactrols. As was pointed out, vactrols were more of a 200 series thing, The early 100 series are for the most part built of nothing but transistors, resistors, capacitors and diodes. It's pretty amazing what you can do with just those components!

The signal levels are one part of the equation that I am still working out, the prototypes in the video were literally finished a few days before NAMM. So right now they are still running on the original signal levels. My goal is to get them as close to typical euro levels as possible without interfering with the sound or functionality in any way.

As far as the sound goes - Thats a very individual thing. IMO the 158 sounds fantastic and really shines when it's doing FM. The cross modulation is great and has a sound that (I think) is very unique to this series of oscillator. The rest of the modules are interesting as well, I don't know if I mentioned it in the videos, but all of these modules run off of only the positive rail and ground so every bipolar source (like audio) has to actually be biased upwards and then shifted back down via dc blocking capacitors. So this also gives things a different sound to my ear. Both the mixer and the VCA's tend to distort the signals and IMO are a big part of the sound of the instrument.

FWIW there were a couple of people who came by and played with the system that had or currently have access to an actual 100 system and said that it's sound and behaviour was indistinguishable to them. (Of course this was at NAMM and certainly not a very critical listening enviornment).

I was also able to get an invitation to use the 100 series at Mills college. So you can expect a lot of testing and comparing and videos when that happens.

As far as DIY versions go, we would like to do this eventually, But - if it does happen, it is likely to be a ways off at this point. Certainly not before we can get the first run built and out to distributers.

Or as posted above - Peake has alot of Buchla 100 series boards already laid out and ready for etching.

fwiw Don made it clear that he was not into people using his panel art/layouts, diy is one thing but if you're selling these or whatever you might wana change that, outa respect

tau_seti · Post by **tau_seti** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:15 am

Interesting. I realize I could just listen to Model 100 demos, but how about some proper demos, especially ones that claim to engage in musicality? I couldn't get a sense for anything from the demos is saw. Hopefully control will carry them.

Recitative · Post by **Recitative** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:20 am

Keep in mind that Catalyst Audio is not going to get rich off this.

I hope they do well and I look forward to their modules.

coolshirtdotjpg · Post by **coolshirtdotjpg** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:37 am

slow_riot wrote:
coolshirtdotjpg wrote:
BTW, pretty sure Don's legacy is better served by companies like Make Noise and Verbos who actually bring their own ideas to the table, and sell them at a reasonable price than a company that ripped him off, and is now selling inferior products at high prices.
You've got to be taking the piss? Buchla was a forward thinker and the only reason he didn't care about the endless clones of the 258 & 259 VCOs by everybody and his dog (Make Noise and Verbos both released near clones of these circuits without adding any innovation of note) was that he thought that the 50 year old design was not fit for sale and that people deserve better. I believe that was also one of the reasons he fell out with the folks at BEMI regarding re-releasing the Easel.

First off, Neither the DPO or Complex Osc are "near clones" (no doubt very inspired by the designs you mentioned, of course), second there was no way he could have done anything, even if he wanted to considering the fact that having two oscillators with FM and wavefolding is a pretty general idea and the circuits are entirely original designs. He didn't seem to want to sue Serge for having a module that resembled the 281, and that certainly wasn't 50 years after. Second, they are actually affordable, allowing for working musicians to get a hold of these instruments, much like the buchla designs were originally intended. Third, are you seriously trying to deny that Verbos and Make Noise have been less innovative then BEMI after Don was kicked out? What about the Harmonic Osc, the Telharmonic, Phonogene, Morphogene, Erbe Verb, etc.?

coolshirtdotjpg · Post by **coolshirtdotjpg** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:39 am

Surprised people are willing to defend a company that very publicly screwed over someone who is probably the single most important person in modular synthesis. I know plenty of people who worked for Buchla, hell, I interviewed for a job there years ago. I don't know anyone who speaks kindly of the people he sold the company to.

coolshirtdotjpg · Post by **coolshirtdotjpg** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:14 am

mritenburg wrote:
CatalystAudio wrote:Is that circuits are not covered by copyright but their functionality can be covered by patent. In the US at least - patents expire after 20 years. So assuming that these modules were ever patented, they would be about 30 years beyond that point.
Schematics are, without a doubt, subject to copyright in the US. Copyright term lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years. If Don had not sold the 100 series to CBS, his copyright would still be good until 2086. Because Don sold to CBS and CBS sold their rights, someone out there does hold the rights to the 100 series schematics, and those rights will continue until 2086. Who that is remains a mystery.

This is complete nonsense. Schematics are not subject to copyright, although pcb layout can be. Since this is a totally different form factor, I am guessing that won't be a problem.

slow_riot · Post by **slow_riot** » Wed Jan 25, 2017 11:14 am

I haven't looked at the DPO and Complex Osc intimately to compare against the original 259 and 258 oscs (I couldn't think of anything more boring), but the level of debt to the Buchla modules is clear even from the outside.

Whether we like it or not, the modern legacy that Don left the world is in the hands of BEMI.

MOD WIGGLER

MOD WIGGLER

Catalyst Audio Buchla 100 clones for Eurorack