Which LPG?

listentoaheartbeat · Post by **listentoaheartbeat** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:00 am

exper wrote:More and more I'm starting to agree. In the end, it's just amplitude and frequency attenuation and a nice decay.

Wow, this is one persistent rumour.. It's just a filter, not "amplitude and frequency attenuation".

exper · Post by **exper** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:03 am

listentoaheartbeat wrote:
exper wrote:More and more I'm starting to agree. In the end, it's just amplitude and frequency attenuation and a nice decay.
Wow, this is one persistent rumour.. It's just a filter, not "amplitude and frequency attenuation".

I know, but that's not easily achieved with regular filters, so outside VCAs are needed to fully gate. Then again, that's the problem with LPGs to begin with I guess. Why no one deviates from that method and makes one that uses perhaps a VCF and VCA to get more gating is beyond me. Traditionalists.

Liquidyzer · Post by **Liquidyzer** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:08 am

Navs wrote:Firstly, I really do think that LPGs are totally over-rated. Give me some dynamic FM and a clean VCA and I'm happy.

But if you really want one, the Plan B M10 is nice. I was also pleasantly surprised by the Borg I (white knobs), which I thought got the balance right between being soft but also letting enough harmonic information through.

It's got to be said, though - why did you sell the QMMG? It's a classic and lack of space is never a valid excuse. If you can't deal with vactrol tolerances and so-called bleed, just don't buy a low pass gate.

Agreed, why sell the qmmg if your after lpg? Really your only left with the optomix for space saving. Sputnik and the others are pretty similar sized? Cost wise it's not really like Qmmg's are selling for the huge sums the use to.

listentoaheartbeat · Post by **listentoaheartbeat** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:14 am

exper wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
exper wrote:More and more I'm starting to agree. In the end, it's just amplitude and frequency attenuation and a nice decay.
Wow, this is one persistent rumour.. It's just a filter, not "amplitude and frequency attenuation".
I know, but that's not easily achieved with regular filters, so outside VCAs are needed to fully gate. Then again, that's the problem with LPGs to begin with I guess.

You can make many filters fully gate audio by mixing your CV with a negative offset..

exper wrote:Why no one deviates from that method and makes one that uses perhaps a VCF and VCA to get more gating is beyond me. Traditionalists.

There are plenty filter modules with an output VCA out there, and it can be patched up easily. What you are looking for exists. Why does it always need to be a new product with a fancy name? I don't get it..

exper · Post by **exper** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:34 am

listentoaheartbeat wrote:
exper wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
exper wrote:More and more I'm starting to agree. In the end, it's just amplitude and frequency attenuation and a nice decay.
Wow, this is one persistent rumour.. It's just a filter, not "amplitude and frequency attenuation".
I know, but that's not easily achieved with regular filters, so outside VCAs are needed to fully gate. Then again, that's the problem with LPGs to begin with I guess.
You can make many filters fully gate audio by mixing your CV with a negative offset..

exper wrote:Why no one deviates from that method and makes one that uses perhaps a VCF and VCA to get more gating is beyond me. Traditionalists.
There are plenty filter modules with an output VCA out there, and it can be patched up easily. What you are looking for exists. Why does it always need to be a new product with a fancy name? I don't get it..

Mixing with a negative offset will reduce the amount a filter can open up fully. Not an ideal use really.

As far as already existing, a filter/VCA combo with vactrol control doesn't exist to my knowledge. As far as a new product, well, 1, that's how things progress and move forward, and 2, not everyone likes to tie up 3-4 modules to do something like this. Hence the draw of a lpg to begin with.

What I'd like is a simple module on the surface. Resembling the typical lpg controls of offset, switching for VCF/both/VCA etc.

Inside however, a new topology. Vactrol control, but not just a sallen filter. Whatever needs to happen to achieve fully gated output. A combo of VCF and a VCA, perhaps negative offset initially, whatever.

echoplex · Post by **echoplex** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:38 am

Liquidyzer wrote: Agreed, why sell the qmmg if your after lpg? Really your only left with the optomix for space saving. Sputnik and the others are pretty similar sized? Cost wise it's not really like Qmmg's are selling for the huge sums the use to.

I found that LPGs are kinda overrated for sure !
And I am getting away from that vintage-buchla-westcoast-sound slowly..
I am not even sure if I need a LPG again, at all !
Maybe one channel could be useful ins a few situations but I don't need a QMMG anymore.. so I sold it even tho it is a very nice and flexible module.

the only issue with the suggested thomas white LPG is the depth..

craigie77 · Post by **craigie77** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:46 am

"As far as already existing, a filter/VCA combo with vactrol control doesn't exist to my knowledge"

were talking bout the MALEKKO BORGS?..unless im getting this wrong buddy

Filter/Vca conbo with cvactrol control

exper · Post by **exper** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:27 am

craigie77 wrote:"As far as already existing, a filter/VCA combo with vactrol control doesn't exist to my knowledge"

were talking bout the MALEKKO BORGS?..unless im getting this wrong buddy

Filter/Vca conbo with cvactrol control

No, those do not have a separate VCA inside, they're still based on a typical 292/sallen key filter, and they still bleed (although the older borg 2 not as much). I never go along with the Borgs (original borg 1 and dual borg) as they were too burly sounding and needed a full 10v to open, which hardly any envelope or trigger provides.

CF3 · Post by **CF3** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:37 am

echoplex wrote:the only issue with the suggested thomas white LPG is the depth..

The person who built mine (damn my memory is bad

) flipped the board sideways. Saved a bunch of space. It fits easily in my Monorocket M9104 w/ space to spare.

igormpc · Post by **igormpc** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:54 am

- LPG: PlanB M13
(which in the best case also can be used as a normal filter): Wiard Borg
- clean/bright sound: Wiard Borg
- sum output: PlanB M13
(sum input: Wiard Borg)
- dual: PlanB M13
(not a must-have): Wiard Borg

i didnt try TW LPG. tried optomix and didnt like it. didnt try sputnik, but i think sputnik may be good, roman nows very well how to get westcoast sounds...
probably doepfer & mengqi are good bang for buck --
or better, if you DIY you can get M13 as a ken stone/peter grenader CGS PCB.

i had a borg and like it more as a filter than LPG. probably because i have a m13 also...

bleed: less bleed? Borg. my M13 bleeds. what i do? vca after. i prefer to deal with the bleeding and get a nice tone!

voltages: M13/doepfer expects 8V, Borg/optomix 10V, TW i think is 10V.
since my choice of an envelope is a Wiard Envelator (10v) i usually attenuate it before M13.

tips: LPGs likes pings. i usually mix a SQU out from envelator with the envelope to have more ping/ring when needed.

if you dont want to mix envelope with ping/pulse, attenuate, pass all on another vca, dont diy, dont want to find a out-of-stock module, get a borg!

listentoaheartbeat · Post by **listentoaheartbeat** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 10:00 am

exper wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
exper wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
exper wrote:More and more I'm starting to agree. In the end, it's just amplitude and frequency attenuation and a nice decay.
Wow, this is one persistent rumour.. It's just a filter, not "amplitude and frequency attenuation".
I know, but that's not easily achieved with regular filters, so outside VCAs are needed to fully gate. Then again, that's the problem with LPGs to begin with I guess.
You can make many filters fully gate audio by mixing your CV with a negative offset..
Mixing with a negative offset will reduce the amount a filter can open up fully. Not an ideal use really.

Depending on the slope of your filter, the scaling of the CV input and the peak voltage of your envelope this is totally feasible. Well, unless you care about ultrasonic harmonics. I do this with Maths and the Toppo Multifilter, works well.

exper wrote:
listentoaheartbeat wrote:
exper wrote:Why no one deviates from that method and makes one that uses perhaps a VCF and VCA to get more gating is beyond me. Traditionalists.
There are plenty filter modules with an output VCA out there, and it can be patched up easily. What you are looking for exists. Why does it always need to be a new product with a fancy name? I don't get it..
As far as already existing, a filter/VCA combo with vactrol control doesn't exist to my knowledge. As far as a new product, well, 1, that's how things progress and move forward, and 2, not everyone likes to tie up 3-4 modules to do something like this. Hence the draw of a lpg to begin with.

That's the draw of a LPG? Efficiency? Well, certainly not for me. It's all about the non-linearities and inconsistencies in the response, depending on how you excite it. If you remove them, you will end up with something that sounds nothing like a LPG, for better or for worse.

If you are using a vactrol, you will introduce uncertainty back into the equation. What you are looking for is an envelope, a filter and a VCA, not something vactrol-driven. There are a lot of modules which integrate some of the functions if you want to avoid patching. Repackaging old ideas into new products is not what I call progression.

carlosnyb · Post by **carlosnyb** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:32 am

Me just likey weird sounds and plonky things sometimes.

AAG · Post by **AAG** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:22 pm

I love the Doepfer A-101-2 LPG so much I got two. The gated mode switching kicks ass. I have no first hand experience with any other LPGs, though.

Here's an example of two working together:

[soundcloud url="https://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/195592212" params="auto_play=false&hide_related=false&show_comments=true&show_user=true&show_reposts=false&visual=true" width="100%" height="450" iframe="true" /]

Blairio · Post by **Blairio** » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:17 pm

listentoaheartbeat wrote: "You also might want to try the Doepfer LPG and swap the vactrols with slower ones. They are mounted with sockets and can easily be removed

THONK in the UK stocks vactrols with two different sustain / saturation values:

http://www.thonk.co.uk/shop/vactrols-vtl/

I am happy with my Doepfer 101-2, but I am also considering an MN Optomix. Does anyone know whether the Optomix vactrols can be swapped out in the same way? Or are they soldered onto the circuit board?

sonicwarrior · Post by **sonicwarrior** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 3:55 am

Blairio wrote:Or are they soldered onto the circuit board?

They are soldered in. At least in mine. I'm quite happy with my vactrols though.

davidh · Post by **davidh** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:08 am

you could give MI Streams a try, as it is digital, it may be clean

and you do not need a lpg anymore use it as a VCA, EG, compressor...

Puzzler · Post by **Puzzler** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:36 am

Why do you want a LPG with Vactrols if you dont want it to bleed?

Then you just could simply trigger a vca and a LP filter with the same gate?!

nucleus · Post by **nucleus** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:49 am

what is bleeding in a LPG? as in after the envelope cycle the filter/vca doesn't close completely?

Puzzler · Post by **Puzzler** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:46 am

I guess so and at least thomas white is selling this as a feature.

peripatitis · Post by **peripatitis** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:14 am

Navs wrote:Firstly, I really do think that LPGs are totally over-rated.

Totally agree with this !
And in any case just get a PTG and use it with any filter you like.
From what i understand vactrols only affect the way a filter responds to modulation, and with ptg you have a lot more control with that than any lpg and no bleed.

echoplex · Post by **echoplex** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:23 am

thank you guys for your huge feedback on this topic.
I decided to not buy a new LPG.. if I want that kind of sounds I can do it elsewise with filters and vca.. I don't need vactrol.
MI Streams is also a nice suggestion.. interesting module tho..
will watch a demo now

exper · Post by **exper** » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:33 am

Streams is quite nice all around. Especially the 'b' set of functions. At least with that, if you're not using the vactrol function, you've got compression, envelope following, etc.

Re:PTG

It's a very unique module, but I could never seem to get a good 'umph' out of it. Never measured the voltage, but assuming you'd need the average minimum of 5v/max of 8-10v to open up a filter fully, I don't think I ever got that much from it. At least not when wanting a short, non sustained output. Still, I would like to re-visit one again.

orangehexagon · Post by **orangehexagon** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:28 pm

exper wrote:
craigie77 wrote:"As far as already existing, a filter/VCA combo with vactrol control doesn't exist to my knowledge"

were talking bout the MALEKKO BORGS?..unless im getting this wrong buddy

Filter/Vca conbo with cvactrol control
No, those do not have a separate VCA inside, they're still based on a typical 292/sallen key filter, and they still bleed (although the older borg 2 not as much). I never go along with the Borgs (original borg 1 and dual borg) as they were too burly sounding and needed a full 10v to open, which hardly any envelope or trigger provides.

FWIW, my Borg 2 doesn't bleed at all and I've never had an issue with my trigs not being hot enough to open.

pixelmechanic · Post by **pixelmechanic** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:07 pm

Have had M13 and QMMG, still got Borg 1 and just got Optomix

Out of these Borg 1 is by far my favourite, and finding Optomix to be a bit boring

Borg seems to produce something 'physical', it's full of bloom and growl, but can be natural when required.

QMMG was vicious, loved its resonance and have some fond memories of tweaking all four filters in series on the verge of oscillation... especially mixing up HP/LP. Regret selling it, but not enough to buy one again...

davidh · Post by **davidh** » Wed Mar 25, 2015 4:27 pm

qmmg as a quad oscillator

[video][/video]

MOD WIGGLER

MOD WIGGLER

Which LPG?