Best build quality in Eurorack ?

[wavefold]

Mutable Instruments. the modules feel sturdy and nice

[maudibe]

Yes indeed Noisejockey... it is the firmness, for want of a better word. I like it when the module feels solid and connected... not a great fan of pots/knobs that wobble.

The Bubble Sound gear (and others I mentioned) feels like it could take a nuclear explosion and still feel solid. That sort of feel gives me confidence.

[whinger]

I was really impressed with the Analog Solutions Telemark filter. It has a steel faceplate, and the same knobs as the Telemark, so they're a step up from the standard Eurorack knobs found in other modules. Also, the action on the knob feels good, don't know how to describe it, but the pot it is connected to has a nice resistance to it.

[methodius]

Innerclock's Sync Gen is probably of best quality I have come across.

[estin]

I think the grungy panel art of WMD hides some of the most nicely built modules. I love my SynTech but the knobs turn too easily. The Intelijel a bit to slow/tight. My Geiger counter is pretty ideal as far as feel

I agree about WMD, you can tell they came from building stomp boxes. Love the quality. Theharvestman I was a little meh about at first. Its nice and I like the sound, but wobbly knobs with little resistance just feels worlds apart.

[mskala]

Is ESD protection a serious issue with synthesizer modules? Not many analog circuits are particularly sensitive to it, and even if you have some delicate CMOS logic internal to the module, you're probably not exposing those inputs directly to the outside world for voltage-level reasons anyway. I guess shipping the module in a protective bag may make sense because of some risk of shocking it during installation, though, even if ESD on the inputs isn't a serious issue once it's installed.

[BrotherTheo]

Is ESD protection a serious issue with synthesizer modules? Not many analog circuits are particularly sensitive to it, and even if you have some delicate CMOS logic internal to the module, you're probably not exposing those inputs directly to the outside world for voltage-level reasons anyway. I guess shipping the module in a protective bag may make sense because of some risk of shocking it during installation, though, even if ESD on the inputs isn't a serious issue once it's installed.

Most modern chips have some kind of internal protection. 4000-series CMOS of old has zero protection and is very vulnerable. A zap of 500 volts, which you cannot even feel, can take it right out. The saving grace here is the 3.5mm jacks. As you insert a patch cord the tip gets near the grounded ring of the jack and discharges any static. However this is a hope, not a certainty. If you plug in one side of a patch cord and then touch the other end, you can apply a zap straight to the internal circuits.

--Brother (dreaming of triboelectric sheep) Theo

[Konrad Seifert]

1. Cwejman/Vermona
2. Syntech/ADDAC/Toppobrillo
3. Mutable Instruments

I only had bad experiences with Intellijel, early Harvestman and especially XAOC.

[PM33AUD]

Is ESD protection a serious issue with synthesizer modules? Not many analog circuits are particularly sensitive to it, and even if you have some delicate CMOS logic internal to the module, you're probably not exposing those inputs directly to the outside world for voltage-level reasons anyway. I guess shipping the module in a protective bag may make sense because of some risk of shocking it during installation, though, even if ESD on the inputs isn't a serious issue once it's installed.

The rule of thumb is that any exposed sensitive component should be ESD protected. By exposed, I mean anything that can make contact with a source of ESD in normal use. So while the jack tip being grounded on insertion is mostly effective, it relies completely that the other end is already plugged in and 'sealed off'. However, it is very common for the other end to be unplugged when patching giving a direct path from the tip to the circuitry as BrotherTheo mentioned.

Most ICs with ESD protection are not rated for the larger ESD bursts one may see in product use. The internal diodes are really just there for minor handling/assembly discharges (since they cannot have dead chips arrive) - these environments are already ESD protected. Anyways, these discharges are categorized much lower than something intended for consumer use.

There is also the task of diverting ESD discharges properly. Having the discharge travel through sensitive PCB traces/planes can still cause failures. They have to be controlled and routed properly in order for them to be effectively dumped.

Anyways, I do it because it's not too expensive and I'm used to it. In reality, the jack tip grounding and that the panels are (mostly) grounded (but I guess this isn't guaranteed) probably is enough for folks not to notice more failures. The longer something is kicking around, the chances of an ESD strike increase, as rare as it may be. I'd rather go the safer route for something like this.

[neil.johnson]

Interesting discussion.

All CESYG modules use BI Technologies pots, which are rated at 100k cycles, and they cost about the same as carbon track Alpha or Alps ones. The jacks are the same Cliff ones that Doepfer and MOTM uses. All modules come with reverse power protection as standard, and all modules with SSM2164 also include missing rail protection.

As regards ESD protection, no sensible circuit should have a direct connection between the outside world and an IC pin. For all signals you'd be better off with a series current limiting resistor, maybe an RC filter to reduce RFI. Op-amp outputs should have some series resistance to stop it going unstable when shielded cables are plugged in.

Neil

[mskala]

The rule of thumb is that any exposed sensitive component should be ESD protected. By exposed, I mean anything that can make contact with a source of ESD in normal use. So while the jack tip being grounded on insertion is mostly effective, it relies completely that the other end is already plugged in and 'sealed off'. However, it is very common for the other end to be unplugged when patching giving a direct path from the tip to the circuitry as BrotherTheo mentioned.

Right, but what I was wondering was exactly what that circuitry looks like. Would it be common practice for a CMOS logic input to be connected to a module input anyway, even apart from the ESD considerations? Modular signals are not at CMOS logic levels. Normally you would need some kind of conditioning or level shifting between the jacks and the logic chips anyway, even without ESD concerns. Or is it actually common that people really do connect the jack tips directly to logic chips, in which case they have other worries (like negative and too-high positive voltages) besides ESD?

I guess it's be a fairly plausible thing that someone might connect a MOS op amp input to a module's input jack, and then that would be an ESD issue.

[PM33AUD]

Interesting discussion.

All CESYG modules use BI Technologies pots, which are rated at 100k cycles, and they cost about the same as carbon track Alpha or Alps ones. The jacks are the same Cliff ones that Doepfer and MOTM uses. All modules come with reverse power protection as standard, and all modules with SSM2164 also include missing rail protection.

As regards ESD protection, no sensible circuit should have a direct connection between the outside world and an IC pin. For all signals you'd be better off with a series current limiting resistor, maybe an RC filter to reduce RFI. Op-amp outputs should have some series resistance to stop it going unstable when shielded cables are plugged in.

Neil

It's always interesting when discussions go technical Current limiting via resistor or other passive in the network (if RFI filtering is used) can be an issue for certain parts due to their breakdown. SMD thin film resistors (or low tem matched tf networks) cannot withstand large ESD surges reliably (their R changes everytime they're hit). Series resistance with OA OPs are a touchy subject for me. I generally compensate 'DC-precise outputs' in the loop with the assumption it has to be stable for up to a 'very long' unbalanced shielded cable. Luckily 'very long' for eurorack modular is nowhere near something like a fairly common 100' microphone cable. Series resistances out of the FB loop cause significant DC errors and for front ends that use lower IP impedances (like pro ones), the error is very large. If the inputs and outputs were standardised in this format, we'd not have any issue and could go with the more reliable approach with wider phase margins over wider capacitive loading ranges. But it is what it is.

Right, but what I was wondering was exactly what that circuitry looks like. Would it be common practice for a CMOS logic input to be connected to a module input anyway, even apart from the ESD considerations? Modular signals are not at CMOS logic levels. Normally you would need some kind of conditioning or level shifting between the jacks and the logic chips anyway, even without ESD concerns. Or is it actually common that people really do connect the jack tips directly to logic chips, in which case they have other worries (like negative and too-high positive voltages) besides ESD?

I guess it's be a fairly plausible thing that someone might connect a MOS op amp input to a module's input jack, and then that would be an ESD issue.

ESD is a very low current, short-duration burst (10s of nano seconds) of high-voltage. It's really a voltage issue which causes breakdown of the device's materials. The models vary but the common ones are the HBM, CDM, and IEC 61000-4-2 all with various parameters that affect the profile shape and levels that increasingly test the robustness of a device. Most ESD circuits use diodes that clamp the voltage and shunt the currents to safe ground paths. Since the power of the discharges are so low, these devices are surprisingly small. There can be issues with ESD protection in regards to leakage errors (esp with higher source impedances), linearity concerns if they start conducting for normal signal levels, and so forth.

I'd take caution connecting any active device directly to a jack. If for nothing else, current limiting if the device's ranges are exceeded. This is especially a concern on outputs.

[neil.johnson]

Series resistance with OA OPs are a touchy subject for me. I generally compensate 'DC-precise outputs' in the loop with the assumption it has to be stable for up to a 'very long' unbalanced shielded cable. Luckily 'very long' for eurorack modular is nowhere near something like a fairly common 100' microphone cable. Series resistances out of the FB loop cause significant DC errors and for front ends that use lower IP impedances (like pro ones), the error is very large.

I wrote up some notes on this a while back... viewtopic.php?p=1129644#1129644

Neil

[MB II]

Analogue Systems is definitely in the top three, if not number one.

The modules are built to last a lifetime, every single one to the same high standard and Bob Williams is almost reason enough to justify any price tag on his gear.

This bit I'll say slowly- they build it into the case

[Kaput]

MI always feels very solid to me, as does Verbos.

Most Doepfer modules feel sturdy, too.

[Nantonos]

What beats Doepfer's build quality?

Any module which doesn't partner hard-to-turn pots with sharp-edged, painful-to-grip grey hard plastic knobs beats Doepfer in my opinion.

Thus, any module with bolted-on Alfa/Alpha/BI sealed conductive plastic pots and with smoother or soft-touch knob (Thonk Davies clones, Selco/Sifam knobs like on Intellijel) is so much nicer to use.

On the other hand Doepfer does use pot cages for strain, relief which may be better.

[daverj]

The rule of thumb is that any exposed sensitive component should be ESD protected. By exposed, I mean anything that can make contact with a source of ESD in normal use. So while the jack tip being grounded on insertion is mostly effective, it relies completely that the other end is already plugged in and 'sealed off'. However, it is very common for the other end to be unplugged when patching giving a direct path from the tip to the circuitry as BrotherTheo mentioned.

Right, but what I was wondering was exactly what that circuitry looks like. Would it be common practice for a CMOS logic input to be connected to a module input anyway, even apart from the ESD considerations? Modular signals are not at CMOS logic levels. Normally you would need some kind of conditioning or level shifting between the jacks and the logic chips anyway, even without ESD concerns. Or is it actually common that people really do connect the jack tips directly to logic chips, in which case they have other worries (like negative and too-high positive voltages) besides ESD?

I guess it's be a fairly plausible thing that someone might connect a MOS op amp input to a module's input jack, and then that would be an ESD issue.

No experienced designer would connect CMOS chips directly to input/output jacks on a modular. Some inexperienced people doing DIY have published schematics like that, but I doubt there are any commercial modules like that. The direct inputs can not deal with the normal voltage range of modular voltages, and the outputs are not designed for continuous short circuits. So protection circuits are always added to the inputs and outputs.

Any good designer would not connect any IC pins of any kind (not just CMOS) directly to input/output jacks, though there are a small number of commercial modules that do. Such as a small number of modules that may have direct, or nearly direct connection to a non-inverting op amp circuit. (by "nearly direct" I mean some circuits add a small series resistor as a current limiter) But good designers avoid that, giving the inputs protection against voltages that go well beyond the power rails.

In general the input and output protection circuits have a byproduct of giving a reasonably good protection against static discharge, even though that often wasn't the original intention.

With devices like the ports on a computer static is a much bigger issue because there the connectors do generally connect directly to chips.

I personally feel it is a good idea for manufacturers to ship modules in anti-static bags or bubble, though there are plenty that don't bother. Most components that are static sensitive when out of a circuit become less sensitive once they are in a built board. But since users handle the board, and can touch parts directly during installation, I personally feel it is wise to ship and store modules in anti-static bags or bubble.

[gonya]

Doepfer for me.

[flo]

Do people not touch radiators before they take precious modules / PCBs in their hands? I sure do

[metalpunk]

I'm really happy with build quality of Doepfer and XAOC modules. Solid stuff. Pcb with components and especially panels. While Doepfer has just "classic" simple and clean design, XAOC offers more stylish but also very clean design of panels. Both have great quality of metal and prints. Love to look at them Some brands don't offer so nice panels (both design and metal/print quality)

[Dogma]

Mangrove Mannequins has excellent build quality. The pots travel so well. Its a cramped space at times but thats a very minor complaint considering how it feels and sounds

[panomega]

As experience:
Cwejman
Macbeth Studio Systems
Synthesis Technology
Schippmann Music
Vermona
Mutable Instruments
TipTop Audio
As feeling:
Modcan Synthesizers
ADDAC Systems
Toppobrillo Music Electronics

[mildheadwound]

For me, it's still Livewire; look, build and sound.

FYI; I have about 20 different manufacturers in my setup.

[flashheart]

What would really satisfy my geeky OCD side would be for each and every manufacturer to list the key components, especially the parts that wear, like pots and jacks. Electronics would be cool too. It would at least be a way to make buying decisions based on some specific components rather than feel.

Gieven that most 'manufacturers are 2/3 man shops they'd spend so much time listing all that stuff they'd probably never produce any modules - and what would that tell you anyway?

As for the the electronics - unless you understand exactly how that part is being used in the circuit we'd end up with those pointless Gearslutz discussions between ppl who have little / zero knowledge of electronics. Would you really buy a module based on what ICs it uses?

[mskala]

Would you really buy a module based on what ICs it uses?

A great many people here do...