Best build quality in Eurorack ?

vytis · Post by **vytis** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:18 pm

My vote for build quality (really sturdy, solid construction/feel) goes to Doepfer and Verbos. I haven't experienced Cwejman and ADDAC and I am sure these manufacturers are great too. But Doepfer and Verbos stand out from the crowd against MakeNoise, Malekko, Pittsburgh, Intellijel, SSF, MFB, Ladik, Mutable (not bad but, hey, not the sturdiest)... Oh, Synth Tech are also pretty good.

One thing regarding jacks:

I LOVE Doepfer jacks, the same type used by Synth Tech, TipTop and Ladik (perhaps a few others). They feel great, sound solid (yes, I mean that mechanical sound!). As much as I like the modules and functionality, I absolutely hate the type used by Pittsburgh and Malekko. The horrible hollow sound of the vibrating front panel I hear when inserting/removing patch cables turns me off each time. MakeNoise are slightly better, but still nowhere near as good feeling as Doepfer.

Vanity, I know.

gonkulator · Post by **gonkulator** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 4:29 pm

To me, build quality means both feel/finish quality and durability/reliability/longevity. Cwejman, Doepfer, and Synthtech all feel real solid and are finished well with the exception that both Doepfer and Synthtech have jacks that feel loose (the plug, that is.) Whereas, for example MakeNoise and The Harvestman have pots that aren't secured to the front panel. However, I have had no reliability issues with any of them, so in my mind it is a mixed bag of qualities to judge.

Verbos feels real sturdy (they also have steel front panels like Cwejman) but the painted finish is pretty poor. OTOH, Cwejman Painted finish is real nice.

What would really satisfy my geeky OCD side would be for each and every manufacturer to list the key components, especially the parts that wear, like pots and jacks. Electronics would be cool too. It would at least be a way to make buying decisions based on some specific components rather than feel.

Herman · Post by **Herman** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 8:31 pm

Of the stuff I have Modcan , Addac and Doepfer feel the most sturdy & reliable to me but nothing has failed from anything I own or have owned so far. The only thing I felt wasn't so hot was the feel of an Audio Damage Grain Shift I have but that's never given me any issues either.

At some stage I'm definitely going to have to invest in some Cwejman just to see what all the fuss is about

Dogma · Post by **Dogma** » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:21 pm

Manhatten Analog - have a look at his filters and they are top top top notch. I was extremely impressed by my MA35 and SVVCF
Cwejman, synth tech both feel amazing but Verbos is just a bit better to my mind and I know for a fact he used the very best of everything the construction....

e-tron · Post by **e-tron** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:02 am

I'm surprised to not see Tip Top mentionned more often in this thread.
Their stuff feels very precise. I can say the same for Doepfer.
I know feel (pots) is a slippery subject when talking build quality but
when it comes to dialing and keeping voltages, it is a very reel issue. That said, Makenoise make the worst feeling modules. I've lost patches just by moving my Pressure Points skiff...

PM33AUD · Post by **PM33AUD** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 1:07 am

gonkulator wrote:What would really satisfy my geeky OCD side would be for each and every manufacturer to list the key components, especially the parts that wear, like pots and jacks. Electronics would be cool too. It would at least be a way to make buying decisions based on some specific components rather than feel.

All 3.5mm jacks I'm aware of (and I've scoured the planet for better 3.5mm jacks) are rated for 5k cycles.

Alpha pots (plastic or metal shaft) typically have a 10k - 15k cycle life which is what's in most modules. These are going to need replaced on heavy-use controls sooner than one might think. Any old synth has the same issues and one of the tasks of a refurb is to replace the worn out parts. If they would have used better parts, the usable life (and overally enjoyment of the user) would be greater.

Synthtech modules, as examples of very good build quality IMO, use conductive plastic pots with sealed shafts. They are rated for 1M cycles. They are about 3x more costly than normal carbon pots but last 100 times longer. Of course this cost is placed on the buyer - and I'm no marketing expert but I'd rather have the better made module. I have no idea why folks still use relatively low-life pots. Maybe it's the size? Maybe it still is the cost?

As far as the electronics go, you're less concerned with life (since I'm guessing most things are build within safe operating regions of the parts) but rather with precision, error, and drift. This all affects how the module will perform day to day and whether sensitive patches will sound and react the same way across normal operating conditions and temperature ranges. Temperature drift also hurts the performance of a module intended for precision duties and in many cases is not compensated for. Stack up the errors from start to finish, and it can very easily become non-negligible. Depends on the application and the user's desired level of performance. And what folks are willing to pay - exceptional build quality costs real dollars.

kipervarg · Post by **kipervarg** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 3:10 am

I've done a few diy kits like the x0xb0x and am familiar with pots and resistors, etc. I've spent a good deal of time soldering things and understand basic electronics.

I am very impressed with Synthesis Technology modules. Really good pots, solder joints, well laid out circuits. Feels solid to the touch and sounds great. Looking forward to buying more of their stuff.

While Intellijel gets great reviews on this board for their quality, some of the modules have parts that feel very fragile. Pots that turn inconsistently. Very innovative company, but the build quality is a bit lacking. Depending on the module, the sound can be great from Intellijel. Very happy with their Rubicon oscillator.

Funky40 · Post by **Funky40** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:17 am

Synthtech / Motm / Paul uses Bi-tec pots. Winner ! ...and has overall a good look on what parts he uses .
not had any Cwejman or MacBeth. Can´t vouch for them

many manufacturers are useing stounningly cheap parts,
some even parts that i would consider to be crap ( some sort of jacks).
....there is one guy copying from the other......

most delicate parts since ever are the pots and the jacks, IMHO

Verbos fails in regards to quality with their paintjob....just to say
( i had an early module not shure if it changed ? probably not when everybody is stating them to have good or superb quality

)

a big number on that reliability deal is the serviceability of the modules
in the whole, Doepfer looks there quite good !........but the PCBs are prone to lift solderlugs off when desoldering.....be aware.

personally i think, "reliability" has also to do with many other aspects.
...if a module can be revisited and brought in a better form as a MK-II........the MK-I loses ...........at least on value.
...many modules suffer from not very good or even poor "design" decisions. my opinion

smurphd · Post by **smurphd** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:26 am

Cwejman really stands out from the rest of the modules i own. They feel like a brick compared to the rest of the modules I own which more or less have a feel of crappy toy to them. Doepfer feels well build as well specially the prices taken into consideration.

h4ndcrafted · Post by **h4ndcrafted** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:02 am

e-tron wrote:I'm surprised to not see Tip Top mentionned more often in this thread.
Their stuff feels very precise. I can say the same for Doepfer.
I know feel (pots) is a slippery subject when talking build quality but
when it comes to dialing and keeping voltages, it is a very reel issue. That said, Makenoise make the worst feeling modules. I've lost patches just by moving my Pressure Points skiff...

Yes my z3000 mk2 has a very precise quality feel and well thought out. It pains me to sell it, but I have simply run out of room and individual Osc are the first to go

trickness · Post by **trickness** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:33 am

Macbeth, Cwejman...I'd say Verbos too but some folks have had some flaky pieces, mine (I've got all of the Verbos stuff except the touch keyboard) have been awesome

e-tron · Post by **e-tron** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:34 pm

e-tron wrote: Yes my z3000 mk2 has a very precise quality feel and well thought out. It pains me to sell it, but I have simply run out of room and individual Osc are the first to go

I feel your pain. Looks like I'm about to do the same...

visible cow · Post by **visible cow** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 12:55 pm

I have to agree with people saying Cwejman, Synthesis Technology, Modcan and Doepfer....but honestly I haven't run into problems with a single manufacturer. I love a solid brick-like feel from a module but also appreciate the ones that feel a bit more loose and fluid such as maths. I would never associate that feel with sub-par build quality.

turin horsey · Post by **turin horsey** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:34 pm

Metasonix feels quality to my hands

lessavyfav · Post by **lessavyfav** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:30 pm

I think the grungy panel art of WMD hides some of the most nicely built modules. I love my SynTech but the knobs turn too easily. The Intelijel a bit to slow/tight. My Geiger counter is pretty ideal as far as feel

Mefistophelees · Post by **Mefistophelees** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:46 pm

I have a fairly hefty system now and there are modules from 50 different manufacturers.

To date none have given me problems and to be honest most feel fairly similar though some do feel a bit more sturdy than others. Some pots are wobblier than others but this only feels bad, I don't believe that this indicate actual pot quality.

Of all the modules I have only two manufacturers really stand out from the others: Macbeth and Schippmann.

In both cases the front panel isn't just a plain bit of aluminium. It's been painted or treated somehow and the Schippmann at least feels like a hefty chunk of metal.

I recently got a new Schippmann filter and it came in a blue electrostatic box that contained the module in an electrostatic bag with a big moisture absorbing bag and screws with rubber washers. There was foam in the box to protect it and a printed manual. There is a printed label on the box with the details and the serial number.
They do not look or feel or sound like other modules. He even uses gold plated jack sockets.

You really get the impression that there's been a great deal of attention to detail in the module.

In Ken Macbeth's case, if you follow him on facebook you'll know the level of detail he goes into.

slow_riot · Post by **slow_riot** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:50 pm

Whichever one picks up the phone in 10 years and says "sure, I'll take a look at it for you" .

tsunamisucks · Post by **tsunamisucks** » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:43 pm

i wonder why L-1 haven't been mentioned yet

gold platted PCB, back panel (like Cwejman)

prices are ridiculous

sounds great

cranleigh · Post by **cranleigh** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:31 am

slow_riot wrote:Whichever one picks up the phone in 10 years and says "sure, I'll take a look at it for you" .

Yes! In my (albeit pretty limited) experience so far, Synth Tech, Bubblesound and Manhattan Analog stand out as the modules that feel really well made and rugged. But the real test, cheesily enough, is TIME (maaan!).

madhun2001 · Post by **madhun2001** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:11 pm

Someone mentioned ESD. If we're to discuss "build quality" lets go for the low hanging fruit.

First has to be power. No reverse protection is a biggie. Badly marked or unmarked power connectors is a slap-able offense. And odd sized power connectors deserve a spanking (ahem Modcan).

Then there's open pots. Why does my $400 module have open pots? The waveform select pot is all scratchy. Pisses me off, it does. How about charging $402 for the module and using sealed pots?

Jacks seem to be less of an issue. With the exception of early Doepfer plastic jacks that get looser that a jersey corner gal, I've had few issues with jacks.

Ah, ESD. Not sure I see an issue when the jacks have grounds and would seem to provide adequate protection. Sure you can add ESD protection devices to each input and output, but the good stuff costs $$$ and it will add up fast.

So I say: lets fix the power first and eliminate a large percentage of the crash and burns

gottberg · Post by **gottberg** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:23 pm

lessavyfav wrote:I think the grungy panel art of WMD hides some of the most nicely built modules. I love my SynTech but the knobs turn too easily. The Intelijel a bit to slow/tight. My Geiger counter is pretty ideal as far as feel

WMD is

moofi · Post by **moofi** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:26 pm

Cannot tell much else other than from feeling the sturdiness handlingwise. I like Pittsburgh very much. Synthesis Technology feels very well built aswell.
This certainly has a lot to do with the feeling of the knobs.

Dogma · Post by **Dogma** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:56 pm

tsunamisucks wrote:i wonder why L-1 haven't been mentioned yet

gold platted PCB, back panel (like Cwejman)

prices are ridiculous

sounds great

Its just weird isnt it. AS you sad gold plated boards, smae parts as synth tech and Cwejman and in some cases better
I spoke to Alex last night and his simple OSC is ready so no need for the Dixies! The guy does the best work and is so cheap.....Mutant filter

maudibe · Post by **maudibe** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:08 pm

Got to say, I have no shoddy modules; generally in eurorack the build quality seems to be fantastic - probably due to the makers being true enthusiasts and proud of their output.

But looking at the boards (as if it matters) and overall consistency these seem to be hitting a high note, in my experience, in no particular order:

ADDAC (high price=high quality)

Bubble Sound

Circuit Abbey

Modcan

Synthesis Technolgy

And of course Doepfer, because so many made and so few issues. Just tight functionality with minimum fuss.

All imho of course

noisejockey · Post by **noisejockey** » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:48 pm

Must add my voice to sing the praises of WMD, Synthesis Technology, TipTop, and Circuit Abbey. From an end-user standpoint their control surfaces and knobs have no wiggle, nice firmness, and they can handle all sorts of crazy signals Man Did Not Intend.

I adore my other modules from Mutable, Intelljel, and Make Noise, and they take huge design risks and make extremely smart decisions. I do not have any problems or concerns about their modules. But the "feel" of their gear is a bit less industrial-grade...in my opinion, only.

I really don't think any of that much matters unless you're a touring musician or are especially hard on your kit. But the manufacturers in my first paragraph exude a confidence - and a price tag - that just screams quality.

MOD WIGGLER

MOD WIGGLER

Best build quality in Eurorack ?