I'm too stupid to reverb

[R.U.Nuts]

Maybe this thread belongs to the Production techniques forum?

Sorry, until now I didn't even know that such a sub forum exists. I mostly hang out at the eurocrack bar. Am I too dumb to forum, too?

[mishap]

Maybe this thread belongs to the Production techniques forum?

Sorry, until now I didn't even know that such a sub forum exists. I mostly hang out at the eurocrack bar. Am I too dumb to forum, too?

Probably not. Which forum to post in is often a crapshoot and, IMHO, you did just fine.

[Kattefjaes]

It's really hard to give useful advice about this kind of thing on this forum because people here make all kinds of weird (often awesome) music where typical guidelines don't apply. This comment is based on my experience with relatively conventional music that isn't typically using reverb as a "pay attention to me" effect a-la-80's-ballads but as a tool to create depth in a mix...

I was trying to articulate something like this but couldn't quite put my finger on it. There's a lot more you can do with reverb than place a sound in space. Mind you, I way always the kid who re-purposed those conical lego trees for other weird roles in any construct, too.

[sleestack808]

I’ll paste something from a Daniel Lanois interview that I found interesting.
It’s about chords not clashing. You could do this with a looper pedal. Or daw

“In recent times, I've taken an interest in not having long sustains carry through chords: if I've got a stretch of ascending notes, I'll queue up the machine right on the note of the resolve so one note will not bump into the other. I'll play a note and print that, then I'll print the next note separately, and then the next note separately…

It keeps passages more kinetic note-to-note as opposed to being a total wash.

Exactly, you get this overall effect where there's no smearing or bleeding. It's like the opposite of the Taj Mahal.”

[NoName]

I’ll paste something from a Daniel Lanois interview that I found interesting.
It’s about chords not clashing. You could do this with a looper pedal. Or daw

“In recent times, I've taken an interest in not having long sustains carry through chords: if I've got a stretch of ascending notes, I'll queue up the machine right on the note of the resolve so one note will not bump into the other. I'll play a note and print that, then I'll print the next note separately, and then the next note separately…

It keeps passages more kinetic note-to-note as opposed to being a total wash.

Exactly, you get this overall effect where there's no smearing or bleeding. It's like the opposite of the Taj Mahal.”

This reminds me of an idea: using CV to control reverb like a sustain pedal on a piano. So every section where the harmony changes or you want a “pedal up” you make the size and/or decay time small. Then when you want reverb use CV to make those values large again. Clocked probably would work best or trigger it off note gates.
Thoughts on this approach?

[Kattefjaes]

I did something much more oafish, I used sidechain to duck reverb tails for interesting rhythmic effects:



(If you skip to 2m15 or so, there's a bit of it, and it comes back at about 2m57)

[sleestack808]

Sound like a great idea

I’ll paste something from a Daniel Lanois interview that I found interesting.
It’s about chords not clashing. You could do this with a looper pedal. Or daw

“In recent times, I've taken an interest in not having long sustains carry through chords: if I've got a stretch of ascending notes, I'll queue up the machine right on the note of the resolve so one note will not bump into the other. I'll play a note and print that, then I'll print the next note separately, and then the next note separately…

It keeps passages more kinetic note-to-note as opposed to being a total wash.

Exactly, you get this overall effect where there's no smearing or bleeding. It's like the opposite of the Taj Mahal.”

This reminds me of an idea: using CV to control reverb like a sustain pedal on a piano. So every section where the harmony changes or you want a “pedal up” you make the size and/or decay time small. Then when you want reverb use CV to make those values large again. Clocked probably would work best or trigger it off note gates.
Thoughts on this approach?

[sir stony]

Probably depends heavily on the effects unit used. Not all reverb units take well to real-time change of parameters.

[mrbloor]

I was a bit obsessed with reverbs, pretty much had a ton & moved them on. I've settled on a spring with the modular, I love spring reverb & I love feedback so it's very much a creative effect but agree just for a reverb effect I tend to have it barely on & choose a few percussive voices to put through it.

A few years back my setup was totally different & my favourite reverb technique can be heard in the percussion on this track.



I keep meaning to revisit the technique, basically I played the percussion track through a set of bone transducers attached to an old zither & recorded the sound inside the zither. I've experimented with other instruments, cupboards, shower cubicles & very resonant rooms using a variety of transducers attached to objects & also speakers just playing in the space.

Of course this is nothing new but I do like the sound of a physical space, however large or small.

[skinpop]

Here's how I balance reverb:

Start with full reverb volume, then slowly turn down the reverb until I don't notice it anymore. Stop playback and write down the value.
Next start with zero volume then slowly turn up until I just about notice it. Write down the value then pick one between the two. I find this is just enough for the sound to move out of literally being right in my ear.

I don't like when reverb is prominent in a mix unless it's used to do some weird and deliberate effect. Thank god for NLC and their dry demoes.

[grayghost]

I’ll paste something from a Daniel Lanois interview that I found interesting.
It’s about chords not clashing. You could do this with a looper pedal. Or daw

“In recent times, I've taken an interest in not having long sustains carry through chords: if I've got a stretch of ascending notes, I'll queue up the machine right on the note of the resolve so one note will not bump into the other. I'll play a note and print that, then I'll print the next note separately, and then the next note separately…

It keeps passages more kinetic note-to-note as opposed to being a total wash.

Exactly, you get this overall effect where there's no smearing or bleeding. It's like the opposite of the Taj Mahal.”

This reminds me of an idea: using CV to control reverb like a sustain pedal on a piano. So every section where the harmony changes or you want a “pedal up” you make the size and/or decay time small. Then when you want reverb use CV to make those values large again. Clocked probably would work best or trigger it off note gates.
Thoughts on this approach?

Changing decay should be OK, but changing reverb size causes all delay lines to shift, resulting in a pitch shift that is also reverberated. There may be algorithms, adapted from similar ones in delay effects, that cancel the pitch shifts, but I don't know of any available.

To simulate change in size, especially alternation between a finite number of preset sizes: have several different reverbs and crossfade their outputs -- alternately for smoother transition, a single source panned between the reverbs with a simple mix of outputs.

[NoName]

I’ll paste something from a Daniel Lanois interview that I found interesting.
It’s about chords not clashing. You could do this with a looper pedal. Or daw

“In recent times, I've taken an interest in not having long sustains carry through chords: if I've got a stretch of ascending notes, I'll queue up the machine right on the note of the resolve so one note will not bump into the other. I'll play a note and print that, then I'll print the next note separately, and then the next note separately…

It keeps passages more kinetic note-to-note as opposed to being a total wash.

Exactly, you get this overall effect where there's no smearing or bleeding. It's like the opposite of the Taj Mahal.”

This reminds me of an idea: using CV to control reverb like a sustain pedal on a piano. So every section where the harmony changes or you want a “pedal up” you make the size and/or decay time small. Then when you want reverb use CV to make those values large again. Clocked probably would work best or trigger it off note gates.
Thoughts on this approach?

Changing decay should be OK, but changing reverb size causes all delay lines to shift, resulting in a pitch shift that is also reverberated. There may be algorithms, adapted from similar ones in delay effects, that cancel the pitch shifts, but I don't know of any available.

To simulate change in size, especially alternation between a finite number of preset sizes: have several different reverbs and crossfade their outputs -- alternately for smoother transition, a single source panned between the reverbs with a simple mix of outputs.

Thanks for the tip! I hadn’t thought about how changing the size abruptly would change the pitch

[Kosmikos]

I also had problems with my Strymon Big Sky in the past, I couldn’t get it to sound interesting. I found that sometime too many parameters can be a bad thing.
I then started using an FXAid with more simple one knob, or 3 knobs programs and got some really good results from it. Also having access to a multitude of algorithms with simple parameters can be really useful, as you might find than like me you are more of a delay reverb type of person, or find an algorithm you really gel with.

[clwilla]

Here's how I balance reverb:

Start with full reverb volume, then slowly turn down the reverb until I don't notice it anymore. Stop playback and write down the value.
Next start with zero volume then slowly turn up until I just about notice it. Write down the value then pick one between the two. I find this is just enough for the sound to move out of literally being right in my ear.

I don't like when reverb is prominent in a mix unless it's used to do some weird and deliberate effect. Thank god for NLC and their dry demoes.

I like (mostly) dry demos too, unless I’m looking at an effect, but I also like demos that show practical uses. Just about every video I’ve seen with NLC in it is mostly just hosing cv all over the place, which I find far less useful than hearing a little reverb in a demo. I often find it difficult to discern how I might use it in a normal use case.

[Keltie]

Lots of good stuff in this thread. The stuff that resonates most with me ( see what I did there? ) is around EQ ing. So important. There are choices: send, return, both or in the effect itself. Any or all can work, but I’m mostly doing this in the effect itself.

My additional 2c:

IMO, you should basically never use more than 4 reverbs in a mix. I feel it makes the overall sound too unfocused. Hence send and return above insert is something I subscribe to, myself. There might be the odd exception where a sound needs a very specific treatment, but basically if you’re juggling 8-10 different reverb sounds in a mix, that’s bad news.

Two short, two long, maximum.

Two massively under rated parameters: the early reflection/ diffusion balance. Early reflections, acoustically, have reflected once and once only to reach the listener. By definition, they are the loudest reflections, the earliest and the brightest. All other things being equal, a longer predelay before the ER implies a larger space. This is a simple trick to make a shortish reverb time, say 1.2 sec, sound a lot bigger. Don’t jack up the overall RT, jack up the predelay, and play with the ER balance.

Then the bass crossover and time factor, available in most plugs and hardware such as lexicon etc. Simple for modular heads to understand, if you don’t already: imagine a crossover dividing frequencies below and above x, and where the reverb time is multiplied by greater than 1 for frequencies below x. In other words, lower frequencies get a longer reverb. If you’re getting muddy returns, playing with this can help.

I get to listen to a lot of music by relative beginners, and the number 1 issue is too much reverb, and using too long a setting. The typical preset called “Enormohall 1” with a 4.8 second decay, a crossover at 400 hz and 1.3 LF multiplier…. is a mix killer. It will sound gorgeous in solo, but dreadful in most real situations, and especially for dense electronic mixes. Avoid for anything other than minimal, succulent loving ambient.

I totally subscribe to “ just loud enough to be obvious, now back it off till you almost can’t hear it”. Reverb should be obvious when you turn it off, not when you turn it on.

YMMV

[Kattefjaes]

I was a bit obsessed with reverbs, pretty much had a ton & moved them on. I've settled on a spring with the modular, I love spring reverb & I love feedback so it's very much a creative effect but agree just for a reverb effect I tend to have it barely on & choose a few percussive voices to put through it.

Oh goodness, yes. I hardly ever use my spring reverb for actual reverb effects, more for weird swelling howls of feedback and the like. It's delightful when you just edge it so it's on the verge of breaking up into feedback too.

[leftbracket]

I was a bit obsessed with reverbs, pretty much had a ton & moved them on. I've settled on a spring with the modular, I love spring reverb & I love feedback so it's very much a creative effect but agree just for a reverb effect I tend to have it barely on & choose a few percussive voices to put through it.

Oh goodness, yes. I hardly ever use my spring reverb for actual reverb effects, more for weird swelling howls of feedback and the like. It's delightful when you just edge it so it's on the verge of breaking up into feedback too.

The venerable Knas Ekdahl Moisturizer is of course a lovely standalone device for this. Karl is a great guy and local (to me) in the Greatest City in America, no less.

[mrbloor]

Oh goodness, yes. I hardly ever use my spring reverb for actual reverb effects, more for weird swelling howls of feedback and the like. It's delightful when you just edge it so it's on the verge of breaking up into feedback too.

I do a lot of feedback, kinda question the need for an oscillator, I usually patch the feedback through a bandpass filter so I can tune it. It does sound glorious and it's always there as an option during a performance if I feel the need to go there (which I usually do).

The venerable Knas Ekdahl Moisturizer is of course a lovely standalone device for this. Karl is a great guy and local (to me) in the Greatest City in America, no less.

Oh yes a beauty, for table setups and single instruments it's the best but when I ditched all that & went 3u modular it seemed daft to keep it so I sold it to a chap who had Karl's other masterpiece The Polygamist.

[Navs]

... bass crossover and time factor, available in most plugs and hardware such as lexicon etc. ...

Great post, Keltie, thanks.

Yes, I forgot that parameter. I first came across it in Eos but then re-found it in my old MPX-1. It's damping, not an EQ cut, and is also important to tailor your reverb.

[Kattefjaes]

I do a lot of feedback, kinda question the need for an oscillator, I usually patch the feedback through a bandpass filter so I can tune it. It does sound glorious and it's always there as an option during a performance if I feel the need to go there (which I usually do).

Yes! It's very much a sound source itself, often the input is more of an impulse to provoke it as a resonator.

I just have a nice little Springray 2 with a couple of tanks, but the sweepable filter, return loop and limiter stuff in the module is very well thought-out. They're blatant affordances for people who want to abuse it as a playable sound source rather than just to put a little polite reverb on something. While you don't need any of those features per se as the rest of the modular could probably provide them, it's really nice to see them there on-tap. It makes it much more immediate to add to a patch, so more likely to happen.

Its main flaw is that it's so much fun to play with that I rarely get anything productive done with it. I get lost in long meandering soundscapes and lose track of what I was meant to be doing. However, since that's probably what my modular is for, there could be worse problems. The luxury of being a dilettante and all that.

[Rex Coil 7]

I was a bit obsessed with reverbs, pretty much had a ton & moved them on. I've settled on a spring with the modular, I love spring reverb & I love feedback so it's very much a creative effect but agree just for a reverb effect I tend to have it barely on & choose a few percussive voices to put through it.

A few years back my setup was totally different & my favourite reverb technique can be heard in the percussion on this track.



I keep meaning to revisit the technique, basically I played the percussion track through a set of bone transducers attached to an old zither & recorded the sound inside the zither. I've experimented with other instruments, cupboards, shower cubicles & very resonant rooms using a variety of transducers attached to objects & also speakers just playing in the space.

Of course this is nothing new but I do like the sound of a physical space, however large or small.

I entered a public Men's Room once in a hotel, there were three dudes in there actually recording a guitar solo. Battery powered Pignose amp, mic/preamp and some other stuff. I was politely escorted out by the largest male human I believe was ever born, and he explained they were using the large multi-stall "rest room" to capture the natural room 'verb. Not the weirdest thing I've seen going on in a public restroom, but it's right up there.



Gary Wright (sp?) used to set up the Leslies in bathrooms at various venues on tour.

[mrbloor]

Gary Wright (sp?) used to set up the Leslies in bathrooms at various venues on tour.

Now I wan't a Leslie.

[stripou]

Sometimes I like putting a brickwall-style limiter before a reverb in the effects chain. It makes it sound "huger" while making you able to only have a tiny amount of it in a finished mix to have a very noticeable reverb sound. Interesting effect...

interesting, this sounds super counter intuitive when i think of reverb dynamics and natural space but i have the feeling i'm gonna love the result, can't wait to try

[Spliffgroen]

Already (as can be expected) some great reactions above! I like to add some stuff to that since I think
it might be usefull aswell.

The first thing I like to mention is the perception of your hearing. This in daily life... How are common sounds (
birds, cars, talking people, woods, something that fals.. etc) sounding in the room you're in. This in a church, living room,
elevator, bathroom, nice big building al sound different while its the same sound coming in. Most of the time people
won't notice these thing because we proces it in a non direct way and aren't fully aware of this. If you study your
rooms / surroundings in real life then you can have a better understanding of what real life reverb sounds like.

On the previous note, when you know this more and more, you can reflect on what makes a production reverb sound
realistic and what not. (One is not better or worse than the other in music) now I think it's on you to
decide or experiment on and with different flavours.

So before you can decide why to add reverb and what kind of you must know what the purpose is of adding it.
The different kind of flavours and while they might called "room reverb" it may be a bad implementation
of a room, that doesn't mean its a bad reverb but the manufactor shoudn't call it a room reverb.. (trust your ears!)

Now we know what reverb is and that we can add it to sounds on various ways. Study these different ways and
compare them to what is useful for you and what is not. It may help to make little etudes for yourself to study this.

Example:
What if I use and EQ (hp? lp?) before:
What if I use a send bus in pre fader mode
What if I only use early reflection of one reverb and late of another
What if I bus different reverbs together
What if I send my drums without transients (eg. with a gate) to a reverb and vise versa
What if I shape my reverb with fx 'n'
What if I.. etc etc.

Experiment a lot! and don't be lazy, this helps you a lot in the rests of your music making.

There's a lot of ways I personally use reverb. All depends on the source and vision of the mix.
Lately I'm into shaping individual drum sounds with early reflection and keeping the
transient dry for a blend between dry and wet in a more spatial way. But I can imagine it
will work on other sounds aswell. If you have a polarity switch on your gate or compressor
you can easily split different sounds in the timing domain.

Andd... remember, on a serious note, you really can't be 'stupid' with reverb!
If I may... try to approach it in a different matter, its subjective, so the only
way when you can do stupid things is when you know the opposite. Now you (may)
don't know the opposite so it never can be stupid.

[grayghost]

@Spliffgroen these are great tips, worthy of print out and study... I would emphasize definitely the "what if" part... i..e that study of real world spaces doesn't mean the end goal is replication (not saying that's what you're implying), but instead allows creation of fictional spaces, otherworldly spaces, alien spaces, interplanetary spaces, cubist type multi-perspectival spaces... someone like Lee Perry used this notion to its fullest....

Both the avant-garde and science fictional aspects of electronic music seem to have been lost and with it the futurism... non-orthodox uses of reverb seem one way of recovering a little of this, at least the world building aspect.

this is why I like the paradigm of science fiction because it begins with science. but it doesn't simply end there, with a "transcendental" scientific analysis of the existing world and predictions/simulations based on that analysis. the issue is to deploy science concepts immanently and in a non-scientific way, as pure creation...