Samodular Buchla kits

Buchla, Serge, Studio.h, Northern Light Modular, Keen Assoc., 1979, Vedic Scapes, etc. Banana systems
Be sure to look into MANUFACTURER SUB-FORA as well..
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LaBelleAurore
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by LaBelleAurore »

Ebolatone wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:46 pm I can't imagine how SAModular feels. Support to you.
I definitely share your empathy.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by luchog »

chiasticon wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:37 pmunfortunately this all reminds me of the whole situation with Random*Source/Serge and Prism Circuits. they were fine with others making paperface and endorsed it, until they wanted to, then they publicly "un-endorsed" Prism and talked shit on him for it. it's all just really unfortunate. in such a small community, and with items that cost this much, you'd think that Buchla would realize that people are paying attention, they know damn-well what they're buying and supporting, and shitting on community members will do them no favors.
Yeah, I was thinking pretty much the same thing. It's annoying how quickly the community gets shit on when money is involved. Like the recent kerfuffle with D&D and the OGL. The fans keep a particular "brand" alive and relevant when big business couldn't care less and have no interest in actually offering us anything, and as soon as the community and demand is big enough they think they can exploit us for profit; boom, C&Ds and threats all over the bloody place, and we all get treated no better than thieves.

And from what I've seen of the various "classic reissue" offerings, I can't say I'm particularly impressed. R*S's Paperface offering is really really limited, and not even the same thing since they're updating the circuits, and tbh some of their module choices are really bizarre and confusing to me. That and the fact that Prism is fully modular like the original (as are others like LW and LG); unlike R*S''s continued emphasis on shop panels and their weird 4x4 line.

Buchla's tiny number of classic modules are what, just buying the clones off of someone else (not like they even put the time and resources into re-creating them in-house)? Probably with all of the bugs and whatnot that said clones were well known for, despite the exclusionary pricing. And how many of the 200e bugs are fixed yet? The whole thing just kinda screams lazy cash grab to me. I mean, they've been out for close to a year and there's still only the base 7 modules available. Maybe they should have just focused on the TipTop Euro collab and improving the 200e.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Sinamsis »

I don't think the Random Source/Serge thing with Prism is comparable to this. I'm not aware of any legal action taken. In the end it's up to Serge to give or not give his blessing for a specific product, especially if it impairs his ability to generate income from the products he designed.

BUSA "rereleasing" (or ripping off clones, however you choose to view it) the 200 series as well as the TTA line were all strategic maneuvers to reclaim the clone market and prevent the likes of Behringer from cloning them, respectively.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by chiasticon »

Sinamsis wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:35 pm I don't think the Random Source/Serge thing with Prism is comparable to this. I'm not aware of any legal action taken. In the end it's up to Serge to give or not give his blessing for a specific product, especially if it impairs his ability to generate income from the products he designed.
I agree it's his right to do this; and yes, no legal action was taken that we know of. I was comparing the similarity of endorsing THC/73-75 but not Prism, because at that point R*S wanted to do paperface too. similarly, BUSA didn't care about 200 series clones until they entered that space.

at least BUSA hasn't engaged in public shit-talking... yet.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by weedywhizz »

Beside my shop-offering to the DIY community I didn't recognize the huge amount of support that is now showing up.
You are all awesome and I very much appreciate your heart-warming support on this matter.
Rest assured that SAModular will do anything possible to provide the community with everything the community needs to build your "B-Word" modules and systems.
Thank you so much :hail:
And btw: Every pending order will be fulfilled. Don't worry. May take a bit more time due to the situation but SAModular never scammed anyone and will never do.
Last edited by weedywhizz on Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Burnin »

Was interested in a 252e so I decided to find some reading material on it here and found this:a thread where someone reverse engineered a 252e for MU format. Pretty cool right?
Until page 2 where they got an, albeit informal, C&D request. Weren't advertising that they were gonna sell it, clone it for sale, publish the process as far as I know. Just wanted to share their cool fan project here.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by dgrainger »

Oooooh. It's the zvex guy! That explains some things.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by weedywhizz »

Kent wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:09 pm
LaBelleAurore wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:59 pm
NoGuitars wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:46 pm Since Don was an actual person… can they stop you from using his full name?????

“Compatible with 200 series modules designed by Don Buchla”
Currently, “Don Buchla” is not a registered trademark, but there’s no need to tip toe around BUSA’s trademark for the word “Buchla.”

Use of another’s trademark to describe compatibility or intended use of an item is already considered a fair use in the U.S., so there is nothing wrong with stating “Buchla Compatible” in an offer for sale in the first place.

“IBM Compatible”
“XBOX Compatible”
“Fits VW Jetta”

Are all examples of where another companies’ trademark is fairly used to describe compatibility or intended use of a item not manufactured by the trademark holder.
Exactly what I was going to type up but this is better worded.

Also, it is very difficult to file a trademark on human's name, especially after decades of common use.

We could simply agree to call it "Don Format" and "Buchla 200e/200 Compatible".
I like the idea of using the term "Don-format". At least it will contribute to show respect to the person who actually designed the 200 series. Using the term "B-Word" is ok but something is missing....
I may have claimed the trademark name "Buchla" earlier but didn't - I do respect Don. An example is the Behringer/Oberheim stuff - not good.
Last edited by weedywhizz on Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:06 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by papz »

Or the Arturia thieves and liars who registered the Synthi name and logo behind Robin Wood's back while they claimed they were willing to find a licensing agreement with him...
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by weedywhizz »

@Kent - Just another attempt to get this thread renamed.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Cecilisntmyname »

I'm just building the 245 and the BOM stated 10k-100k Lin pots, which I assume means 100k pots? But the build guide says to use 50k. Will it matter if I use 100k instead of 50k?

Thinking about it it says 10-100k a lot for pot values in the BOM for many modules...
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by fallout »

Any value in between 10k - 100k will work.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Kent »

weedywhizz wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:23 pm @Kent - Just another attempt to get this thread renamed.
When requesting moderator action, please PM us directly. We don't read through every post, on every thread, on every day.
Also, please clearly state what change you would like to see; not just you'd like to see a change. I could rename the thread to "International Potato Industries" and then I'd get a request that the name isn't what was wanted. At least provide a hint as to direction.

Thanks,

Kent
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by weedywhizz »

Kent wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:01 am
weedywhizz wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:23 pm @Kent - Just another attempt to get this thread renamed.
When requesting moderator action, please PM us directly. We don't read through every post, on every thread, on every day.
Also, please clearly state what change you would like to see; not just you'd like to see a change. I could rename the thread to "International Potato Industries" and then I'd get a request that the name isn't what was wanted. At least provide a hint as to direction.

Thanks,

Kent
Sure, makes sense. Thought I PM'd you already about this but it actually was the threadstarter.
PM
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Ebolatone »

Perhaps we could henceforth refer to B as "Angry Lawyers Format".
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Zergon »

The ALF format.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by shoegazer86 »

I wanted to refrain from weighing in on this, but my two cents:

Why focus so much on the "B" word? The whole idea of a brand and a product existing in the free market is to carve a niche out of a free space, and create a customer perception regarding your presence in said market.

Focusing heavily on "Buchla" or "Buchla Format" or "Buchla Inspired" merely acts as a third leg, to prop up a company that is off balance on its own two. Now that can be said of any cloner or company that hearkens back to yesteryear.

I often think back to the time I built guitar pedals. I would offer pedals for sale that were exact copies of multiple guitar effects, and named them. Thing is, I never listed my fuzz pedals as "Tonebender workalikes", or "TBenders" or anything like that. What I did was build customer satisfaction and eventually they realized what they were buying, and appreciated my presentation of such. Companies like Catalinbread, JHS, and other big name manufacturers don't need these buzzwords. They create new product lines that fulfill their niches.

There's an old saying regarding standing "on the shoulders of Giants". It can be a good and a bad thing. I say, be your own giant.

Samodular doesn't sell a "Buchla Format 258". Samodular sells a SAMODULAR 258S.

It's all anyone (in the know) needs to know. It's how companies that make Kit cars stay in business.
weedywhizz wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 2:18 pm
Kent wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 2:09 pm
LaBelleAurore wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:59 pm
NoGuitars wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:46 pm Since Don was an actual person… can they stop you from using his full name?????

“Compatible with 200 series modules designed by Don Buchla”
Currently, “Don Buchla” is not a registered trademark, but there’s no need to tip toe around BUSA’s trademark for the word “Buchla.”

Use of another’s trademark to describe compatibility or intended use of an item is already considered a fair use in the U.S., so there is nothing wrong with stating “Buchla Compatible” in an offer for sale in the first place.

“IBM Compatible”
“XBOX Compatible”
“Fits VW Jetta”

Are all examples of where another companies’ trademark is fairly used to describe compatibility or intended use of a item not manufactured by the trademark holder.
Exactly what I was going to type up but this is better worded.

Also, it is very difficult to file a trademark on human's name, especially after decades of common use.

We could simply agree to call it "Don Format" and "Buchla 200e/200 Compatible".
I like the idea of using the term "Don-format". At least it will contribute to show respect to the person who actually designed the 200 series. Using the term "B-Word" is ok but something is missing....
I may have claimed the trademark name "Buchla" earlier but didn't - I do respect Don. An example is the Behringer/Oberheim stuff - not good.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Sinamsis »

shoegazer86 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:20 pm I wanted to refrain from weighing in on this, but my two cents:

Why focus so much on the "B" word? The whole idea of a brand and a product existing in the free market is to carve a niche out of a free space, and create a customer perception regarding your presence in said market.

Focusing heavily on "Buchla" or "Buchla Format" or "Buchla Inspired" merely acts as a third leg, to prop up a company that is off balance on its own two. Now that can be said of any cloner or company that hearkens back to yesteryear.

I often think back to the time I built guitar pedals. I would offer pedals for sale that were exact copies of multiple guitar effects, and named them. Thing is, I never listed my fuzz pedals as "Tonebender workalikes", or "TBenders" or anything like that. What I did was build customer satisfaction and eventually they realized what they were buying, and appreciated my presentation of such. Companies like Catalinbread, JHS, and other big name manufacturers don't need these buzzwords. They create new product lines that fulfill their niches.

There's an old saying regarding standing "on the shoulders of Giants". It can be a good and a bad thing. I say, be your own giant.

Samodular doesn't sell a "Buchla Format 258". Samodular sells a SAMODULAR 258S.

It's all anyone (in the know) needs to know. It's how companies that make Kit cars stay in business.
Unfortunately, Buchla is trying to claim the module numbers as well. The panel graphics. The knobs. This is with the greatest respect for what you guys do, but comparing guitar pedals to clones of vintage Buchla modules are apples and oranges. There a million Klon and muff clones. Ha, I don't think saturation even begins to describe the guitar pedal market. Vintage Buchla module reissues were something Don had no interest in pursuing, and something that plenty of folks were interested in. The current line of modules, largely put forth by Roman went through several iterations, all supported by the DIY community. And by supported, I mean the community basically finished the designs. Now BUSA has teamed up with Roman to produce some of the clones, calling them reissues, and is systematically pursuing all other sources of clones, which will deprive the DIY community of these modules. It really has less to do with how SAModular carries forward the brand, and how BUSA handles themselves. There's also certain basic legal principles that BUSA doesn't seem to grasp. They pursue anyone who uses the word Buchla, even in context that are perfectly sound and legal. My SAModular case was pulled from Reverb, at the request of BUSA for using the term Buchla compatible. These words are important to avoid confusion, as there are a set of standard voltages, specific connector, bus boards, boats all that would not work with other 4U formats. And since there is no commonly accepted other term, Buchla compatible seems to be the only reasonable way of ensuring there is no confusion.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by shoegazer86 »

Sinamsis wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:40 pm Unfortunately, Buchla is trying to claim the module numbers as well. The panel graphics. The knobs.
Key word here is "trying" to claim. There is a lot of speculation as to how successful something as arbitrary (hah) as colorways and panel legends can be trademarked. And can they trademark a model number if its the preamble to an alphanumeric model number? Like 296M? Many of these marks could fall under fair use depending on how the brand is presented (i.e. branding). The problem is, there is a lot of hair-splitting involved with all of this. You have to first come under fire from BUSA, which would more than likely depend heavily on how much of a dent you are putting in their profits. Then you'd have to have that magic blend of defense/judge that would hold to their argument that a trademark has been taken advantage of. Lots of unknowns here. They can't possibly defend a blue knob on silver grained aluminum, that would be a massive grey area to wade through. It would be as ridiculous as Moog trademarking black panels with white text on them.

And B-Word just sounds weird... I'll just keep building MEMS modules, and visiting universities, they have been much more rewarding than the forums!
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by KSS »

Sinamsis wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:40 pm And since there is no commonly accepted other term, Buchla compatible seems to be the only reasonable way of ensuring there is no confusion.
BU
EU
FU
MU
SU

Is there anyone involved in this who doesn't immediately know what these refer to?

There's some ego involved in saying I have a Buchla system, even if it's a DIY clone. That's being ignored.
Same as B2500 module owners saying they have an ARP

If that weren't the case, there wouldn't be such resistance to using a simpler answer like the two letter format identifiers above.

Separate from that is this. Regardless of where one's horse is in the current events, there's zero doubt that Don *did* consider his panel designs off limits to cloners. He gave up fighting it** but he never liked it.

To be clear, What BUSA is doing -and how they're doing it- is Fkd up. It's also their right and the entitlement here is missing that point. Considered from their side, if they *don't* fight to protect their IP then it can be lost to public domain.
https://www.natlawreview.com/article/en ... -losing-it
Search Losing IP rights.

I'm not a BUSA apologist and I fully support the DIY BU scene. These are facts of law.

I believe BUSA should be handling this differently. The comments of shoegazer86 seem a little over-simplified but the core point is accurate. Is the fight here for Don's format or for the cache of using it in ways he himself did not endorse?

Reverb should *not* be bending to BUSAs threats as they are almost certainly legally empty. But if you were Reverb, you would have to weigh that reality with the possible cost -in time and money- of proving it in court.

Please don't shoot the messenger. I am a long time supporter of SDIY. I despise what's being done to Samodular and others.

**Don's having given up fighting the panel layout clones -while he still held the IP rights- 'may' be a path to declaring them public domain. For the reasons found in the link and search suggestion above. That may be a more fruitful pursuit of an actually important part of this than complaining about BUSA. Use of the circuits is not an issue. PCB and panel layouts are far more likely to have legal standing.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Luman »

Question about the 258 build

I have recently finished the build and reached to the calibration section. But on the first channel (sine to saw) i can't get a sine wave, it seems stucked on a saw tooth. Whenever trimming the trimmer it seems only to increase the saw tooth. The 2N4339 are in spec, so shouldn't be them. Anyone had the same issue? Or can help me out on this one?
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Sinamsis »

Luman wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:10 am Question about the 258 build

I have recently finished the build and reached to the calibration section. But on the first channel (sine to saw) i can't get a sine wave, it seems stucked on a saw tooth. Whenever trimming the trimmer it seems only to increase the saw tooth. The 2N4339 are in spec, so shouldn't be them. Anyone had the same issue? Or can help me out on this one?
How dare you disrupt our discourse with on topic commentary? Haha.

I wish I could help, but I’m sure Steffen will get you sorted.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by Sinamsis »

KSS wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:39 pm
Sinamsis wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:40 pm And since there is no commonly accepted other term, Buchla compatible seems to be the only reasonable way of ensuring there is no confusion.
BU
EU
FU
MU
SU

Is there anyone involved in this who doesn't immediately know what these refer to?

First and foremost, I greatly respect you and whenever I see you post something I always read it over and learn something new. And I’ve seen you post this before. But I have never seen anyone use these abbreviations other than MU and embarrassingly I don’t even know what that stands for. So we have at least an N of 1 that would not understand that. I find it hard to believe these are accepted conventions but maybe they are. I’ve been into modular stuff for about a decade but truly don’t have time to keep up with what the young folks are doing hahaha.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by papz »

Sinamsis wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 8:41 am How dare you disrupt our discourse with on topic commentary? Haha.
I rather consider off-topic the countless technical questions about DIY builds in the 4U section, their place is in fact in the DIY section.
But I'm not a moderator here...
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I don't offer support for attempts to build clones of EMS equipment.
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Re: Samodular Buchla kits

Post by 01235813 »

What would Don have wanted?

I have no idea. I can't imagine he would have wanted to take the 200 to the grave. Maybe he didn't care about his legacy, maybe he just wanted to innovate; who knows. I'd like to think, in the grand scheme of things that it would have put a smile on his face to see and know his instruments were being used in 100 years.

I don't know anything about trademark and copyright, please help me understand. Is the following right?
  • The 200 has been public domain for a while, BUSA did not buy the rights to the 200.
  • Roman reverse engineered the 200 (whilst many others did the fine tuning), the rights to these belong to him and he sold to Buchla.
  • Anyone could have trademarked the panels, many did not out of respect.
  • Buchla is currently trademarking many things 200 and going after the likes of SaModular
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