Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

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Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by bphenix »

The goal of this thread is a general purpose place to learn about Kyma, share information, and place to ask questions. There are a few other Kyma threads on MW that have specific topics and the thought was to keep those focused on those topics, while providing a central place for asking questions or sharing information and becomes a bit of living documentation as starting place for those on MW looking to learn about Kyma.

Related MW threads

Kyma Sonic Cultures Lab. Mega of difference sonic examples. Also has other information but this thread is an attempt to refocus the LAB thread on output rather than Q&A. https://www.modwiggler.com//forum/viewt ... &start=775

Why did you sell your Kyma. https://www.modwiggler.com//forum/viewt ... 6&start=25

Kyma Pacarana Questions. https://www.modwiggler.com//forum/viewt ... hilit=kyma

Kyma softare opinions. Old thread but may be useful. https://www.modwiggler.com//forum/viewtopic.php?t=5983


Terminology

SSC = Symbolic Sound Company aka Carla & Kurt. SSC is the company behind Kyma. Carla and Kurt do the development, support, documentation, etc. In the past, there was sometimes another person helping with admin tasks and the community is welcoming and active but ultimately SSC is a small 2 person shop.

Kyma = Most commonly this refers to the entire ecosystem that comprises of dedicated hardware and the software package. The software comprises of many different elements. The key components are:
  • Sounds. Sometimes referred to by the extension type kym or .kym. This is the primary object to design a signal flow within through the use of connecting Prototypes together.
  • Prototypes. Individual objects within a Sound. Prototypes can be a math operation, a mixer, filter, delay or more complex like GrainCloud or multidimensional spectral morphing. There are 250+ Prototypes within Kyma by default and you can also create your own custom Prototypes.
  • Capytalk. Capytalk is a scripting and control language of Kyma. It is based on SmallTalk syntax and you can use SmallTalk within it but SmallTalk is evaluated at runtime while CapyTalk is evaluated at 1000 per second. This means CapyTalk can generate real-time control signals. Don’t let the phrase scripting turn you off. It is generally quite approachable and you do not need to be a “programmer” to use it to great effect. Capytalk expressions are used everywhere can be as simple as !KeyDown nextRandom which generates a random value with every midi key press or can create elaborate scripts.
  • Multigrid. Multigrids can house multiple sounds in a column / row concept. Think something like a Ableton Live or Bitwig clip view but for Kyma Sounds. The Multigrid has additional features like sends / busses and higher level controls to mix between sounds. Very useful as a performance tool as well as an interactive sound design playground.
  • Timeline. A Sound KYM layout song / composition. Take your Kyma sounds and organize them into a song. Includes automation functionally for the parameters within sounds.
  • Sound Browser. A file manager type of browser for Kyma. What is unique here over your operating system file manager is the ability to quickly preview a Sound or how one sound would Sound through another and create “Galleries” which are like an auto-generated tool where you can explore variations on a theme.
  • Notebook. This may seem like a markdown style text file editor but it has the special ability to reference kyma files and evaluate Capytalk expressions. Designed specifically a teaching aid but also useful for creating your own common expressions and personal notes.
  • Audio editor. Basic audio editor with extra tools like creating audio files from csv files (data sonicification), generating wavetables, and more. Can do quick audio editing but you may find your general purpose audio editor better for those tasks.
  • Speciality editors and tools for Tau and Spectral tools.
KISS = Kyma International Sound Symposium. They Kyma user conference though not just for users. KISS combines performances with lectures and working sessions. Highly recommended. Was paused in 2020 but hopefully will return soon.

Kata or Kyma Kata = started by Alan Jackson the Kata is an open community of Kyma users. There is a slack channel and the group has scheduled weekly calls and ad hoc sessions as well. The purpose is simply to promote learning and sharing of ideas. The Kata has additionally jointly developed new prototypes including filters, wave folders, universal slope generators, tape delays, and compressors. Many people contribute within the Kata including Simon Smith, Andreas Frostholm, Jim O’Rourke, Rafe, and Ian Felton but a special call out goes to Alan and Pete Johnston who without their knowledge and insights many ideas would have never been fully realized.

About Kyma Documentation

People researching Kyma often ask about documentation and would like to see documentation beforehand and may be use to manuals and PDFs. This is understandable given that there Kyma is a bit different and people want to know what they are getting. Kyma’s approach to documentation involves a lots of in-app documentation. The in-app is more user friendly for those using the product with the trade-off of being less visible who may want to learn about Kyma. There is are quick start guides and there used to be a book called Kyma Revealed that could be ordered without buying the system, but the book is about 10 years old and no longer available via print. There is also book written by Professor Stolet called Kyma And The Sumofsines Disco Club that is still available

Other public resources

Very high level setup guide: https://kyma.symbolicsound.com/setting- ... into-kyma/

Video Tutorials by SSC: https://vimeopro.com/symbolicsound/kyma-7-tutorials

Lines threads on Kyma: https://llllllll.co/t/anyone-else-use-kyma/5836

Kyma Studies on Lines: https://llllllll.co/t/kyma-studies/38498

Never Engine Labs: https://www.cristianvogel.com/neverenginelabs/

Jon Bellona: https://www.jpbellona.com/writing/

Alan Jackson: Trying to find a link but Alan offers kyma lessons and a series of custom prototypes. Just the Kata as ping him.

Kyma Kata. If you are interested in join, PM me and I can send you an invite.
Last edited by bphenix on Fri Nov 25, 2022 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by Georgina »

Great!
Thanks for putting this together.

I'd like to add that the Kyma X Revealed! book is available in pdf form to Kyma users and, as such, is sometimes seen circulating around the web.. (it would be interesting to know if SSC is ok with people distributing it and if yes we could share it, because it definitely is a useful tool to understand how Kyma works and to further understand if it is a good tool for us potential buyers).
Kyma X Revealed is pretty old (it refers to an earlier version of Kyma software named Kyma X).
While the SumOfSines book is "newer" (it is from 2010) it is about the same software version.
Having bought the SumOfSines book and having read it I must say that, if one owns the Kyma X Revealed book, it is definitely not a necessary read IMO.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by szzdz »

following with interest. i’ve seen a number of these threads over the years and have been interested in seeing a patch from scratch workflow video, especially using the timeline.

and can i send and receive audio/pulses/cv from modulars easily to integrate the two?
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by stringbot »

szzdz wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:02 pm following with interest. i’ve seen a number of these threads over the years and have been interested in seeing a patch from scratch workflow video, especially using the timeline.

and can i send and receive audio/pulses/cv from modulars easily to integrate the two?
This video of Simon Hutchinson building a Krell patch is a great translation of a familiar synth patch to Kyma's workflow.



A few other YouTube channels I often go back to for Kyma stuff:

Alan Jackson from the Kata: https://www.youtube.com/@orsheeboo
Spectral Evolver: https://www.youtube.com/@SpectralEvolver
Simon Hutchinson: https://www.youtube.com/@SimonHutchinson
Under the Big Tree: https://www.youtube.com/@UndertheBigTree

As far as integrating with the modular, I have never tried to send any sort of CV to Kyma, but there are plenty of envelope followers and threshold detectors. I assume with a DC-coupled interface and a little calibration you could probably do it just fine.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by mutierend »

How does Kyma fit into a typical DAW workflow? Like, if I design a sound in Kyma, do I send MIDI to it via Rewire or a plugin, or does Kyma see my keyboard and output audio to my interface? Trying to get a handle of how it all fits together before I even think about dusting off my Smalltalk skills.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by kf6gpe »

mutierend wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:07 pm How does Kyma fit into a typical DAW workflow? Like, if I design a sound in Kyma, do I send MIDI to it via Rewire or a plugin, or does Kyma see my keyboard and output audio to my interface? Trying to get a handle of how it all fits together before I even think about dusting off my Smalltalk skills.
I've only just gotten started with my Ristretto, so take my answer with a copious helping of salt.

The Kyma Sounds can be controlled by MIDI, yes, but I believe you have to have the MIDI hardware connected to the Kyma hardware, not your desktop/laptop. There' s three other control surfaces available to you on your computer. Sounds present a "Virtual Control Surface" (VCS) on your monitor when running with sliders, buttons, etc. That's the most common way to tinker, and you can optimize the layout of your VCS (convert sliders, restrict ranges, move things around and so forth) to let you experiment, get to where you want, and then clean up the UI for performance purposes. There's an iPad app that lets you use VCS displays on the iPad that has a couple of other affordances if you like. There's also support for Wacom tablets for stylus control.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by bphenix »

mutierend wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:07 pm How does Kyma fit into a typical DAW workflow? Like, if I design a sound in Kyma, do I send MIDI to it via Rewire or a plugin, or does Kyma see my keyboard and output audio to my interface? Trying to get a handle of how it all fits together before I even think about dusting off my Smalltalk skills.
Here are some docs:
https://kyma.symbolicsound.com/setting- ... -computer/

For the Pacamara, it shows up as an audio & midi interface and you select them within the DAW.

I have a Pacarana and I use the routing in the image below. This routing also works for the Pacamara though you wouldn't use a firewire interface but rather a USB interface. However, once I receive my Pacamara, I likely am going to just route over CoreAudio and an aggregate device. Basically that removes Audio Interface A in image.
Screen Shot 2022-11-24 at 5.46.44 PM.png
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by Ears »

bphenix wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:52 pm
mutierend wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:07 pm How does Kyma fit into a typical DAW workflow? Like, if I design a sound in Kyma, do I send MIDI to it via Rewire or a plugin, or does Kyma see my keyboard and output audio to my interface? Trying to get a handle of how it all fits together before I even think about dusting off my Smalltalk skills.
Here are some docs:
https://kyma.symbolicsound.com/setting- ... -computer/

For the Pacamara, it shows up as an audio & midi interface and you select them within the DAW.

I have a Pacarana and I use the routing in the image below. This routing also works for the Pacamara though you wouldn't use a firewire interface but rather a USB interface. However, once I receive my Pacamara, I likely am going to just route over CoreAudio and an aggregate device. Basically that removes Audio Interface A in image.

Screen Shot 2022-11-24 at 5.46.44 PM.png
Thanks for this. I was envisioning exactly this kind of set up so it’s good to learn I wasn’t off in my understanding.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by kf6gpe »

bphenix wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:52 pm Here are some docs:
https://kyma.symbolicsound.com/setting- ... -computer/
I have a Pacarana and I use the routing in the image below. This routing also works for the Pacamara though you wouldn't use a firewire interface but rather a USB interface. However, once I receive my Pacamara, I likely am going to just route over CoreAudio and an aggregate device. Basically that removes Audio Interface A in image.

Screen Shot 2022-11-24 at 5.46.44 PM.png
Excellent, thank you. I wasn't aware of KymaConnect!
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

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kf6gpe wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 10:35 pm
Screen Shot 2022-11-24 at 5.46.44 PM.png
Excellent, thank you. I wasn't aware of KymaConnect!
[/quote]

KymaConnect is useful as it allows you to send midi over ethernet to the hardware box. Additionally, it has a few extra features that I find handy including a midi patchbay that I use to wire up my MotorMix and it can be used to route midi outside of the DAW if desired. It isn't strictly required it saves having to physically wire up midi which I find helpful in my setup.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by musicaespressiva »

Some questions about the new Pacamara hardware:
1) the unit is 1rack unit high….and half unit wide?
2) can it even power a small class compliant interface (babyface pro) through the the ss usb-c port?
3) did Carla and Kurt gave any explanation on why no trades in of old apus this time?
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

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musicaespressiva wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:28 pm Some questions about the new Pacamara hardware:
1) the unit is 1rack unit high….and half unit wide?
2) can it even power a small class compliant interface (babyface pro) through the the ss usb-c port?
3) did Carla and Kurt gave any explanation on why no trades in of old apus this time?
My speculations below:

1) yes it seems like two units will fit in a RU side to side (according to measurements) but I seem to remember reading that the pacamara is NOT rack mountable for lack of mounting brackets.
2) this question may be best answered by SSC
3) no idea :-)
Still not owning a Kyma system.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by bphenix »

For USB-c power, I am pretty sure the answer is yes as there are a number of tested USB-c devices listed that don’t have a dedicated power adapter and require bus power. The Focusrite 2i2 and 4i4 as examples.

SSC did mention some reasons on the launch call why they are not doing the trade-in program. I would hate to speak for them so this is my impressions and interpretation of the factors (no particular order):
1. The trade-in program last time resulted in excess hardware that then needed to be disposed of. With Capybaras, there was a modular design so the parts could be used to upgrade and service hardware but that is less true of the Pacarana. However, even with the ability to reused those components, they ended up with surplus hardware which contributed to e-waste.
2. Users could get more on the resell market. Always a tricky subject for original manufacturers but they acknowledged that this was a factor. I know when I sold my backup Pacarana, I got more for it then the trade-in program fetched last time (which was 10% off). Supporting and encouraging the used market broadens the community as well (and lower waste).
3. The new hardware wasn’t started as an upgrade project. It was in response to the component storage and the initial expectation was to update the connection ports, footprint, and fans but the processing improvements was actually a pleasant surprise and side-effect.
4. The price is lower. I don’t remember if this was explicitly tied to the trade-in program but it is worth pointing out. When so many other manufacturers are raising prices, we see almost a 2x improvement for 15% reduction in price (and perhaps even greater savings since we no longer have to have a dedicated audio interface).
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

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The interesting thing is that I’m not seeing a lot of Pacaranas for sale now (not here or on reverb at least). Users seem to keep them, and not only because Symbolic Sound don’t ship immediately when you order. Those on Reverb right now are priced too high in my opinion, compared to a new system, and they’re not selling. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong place.

Also, I’m a bit confused on all this stress on supporting not so high quality audio interface, motu earlier and focusrite now. I read prism sound and metric halo too in pacarana list of compatible audio interfaces, but why not rme? Why there’s no usb or firewire rme interfaces support for pacarana?
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

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musicaespressiva wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:28 pm 2) can it even power a small class compliant interface (babyface pro) through the the ss usb-c port?
my ONYX blackjack is powered by Pacamara
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

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warnton wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:48 am
musicaespressiva wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:28 pm 2) can it even power a small class compliant interface (babyface pro) through the the ss usb-c port?
my ONYX blackjack is powered by Pacamara
Onyx blackjack??!! Do you people really use this cheap stuff with your kyma system?
I’m evidently missing something
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

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musicaespressiva wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:49 am The interesting thing is that I’m not seeing a lot of Pacaranas for sale now (not here or on reverb at least). Users seem to keep them, and not only because Symbolic Sound don’t ship immediately when you order. Those on Reverb right now are priced too high in my opinion, compared to a new system, and they’re not selling. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong place.

Also, I’m a bit confused on all this stress on supporting not so high quality audio interface, motu earlier and focusrite now. I read prism sound and metric halo too in pacarana list of compatible audio interfaces, but why not rme? Why there’s no usb or firewire rme interfaces support for pacarana?
On the unofficial Kyma group on FB I'm counting at least 7 Pacaranas/Paca for sale now at good prices in Europe, USA and Asia most of the sellers are more than willing to adjust the price since they want to upgrade hardware. I'm in contact with one very generous seller in Sweden and I'd be glad to put you in contact with him if you are interested, now that I have decided I'm buying a current-gen unit. Lots of people are keeping their Paca(rana)s because it seems that they are still very powerful machines that serve their computation needs well, and possibly they have a fw setup that they like as well.

RE: Interfaces - I think interface quality is not the focus here but USB class-compliance; If a company develops a very high quality class-compliant USB interface then I suppose it is supported by SSC. For example Audient makes some decent interfaces that are USB CC, UA, SSL and MOTU as well. RME Babyface can run in class compliant mode.
Also I think that if you are using mac you can use aggregate mode to aggregate your soundcard (independently of connection and drivers) with the Pacamara and use them together.. @bphenix would you be so kind to confirm and possibly describe a real world example of aggregation with Pacamara?
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by Georgina »

musicaespressiva wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:05 am
warnton wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:48 am
musicaespressiva wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:28 pm 2) can it even power a small class compliant interface (babyface pro) through the the ss usb-c port?
my ONYX blackjack is powered by Pacamara
Onyx blackjack??!! Do you people really use this cheap stuff with your kyma system?
I’m evidently missing something
Maybe it is a portable gig interface and warnton has a different interface at home.. or maybe they are happy with the sound quality :-)
Still not owning a Kyma system.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

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Georgina wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:32 am
musicaespressiva wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:05 am
warnton wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:48 am
musicaespressiva wrote: Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:28 pm 2) can it even power a small class compliant interface (babyface pro) through the the ss usb-c port?
my ONYX blackjack is powered by Pacamara
Onyx blackjack??!! Do you people really use this cheap stuff with your kyma system?
I’m evidently missing something
Maybe it is a portable gig interface and warnton has a different interface at home.. or maybe they are happy with the sound quality :-)
es, I was just going to say: you ever play live gigs? at its neither Musikverein nor Carnegiehall but a location with not the best of acoustics, so the onyx is a blessing
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by Georgina »

A question for Pacamara users:
How "loud" is the fan? (i.e. dB measurement or comparison to computer fan..)
Is it set to constant speed or is it modulating based on the APU temp?

I ask because I'm setting up the studio for the (eventual) arrival of the Pacamara and wanted to see if I need to put it in the separate room where the desktop computer is or it can reside in the listening room..

thanks!
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by warnton »

my Pacamara is sitting right besides me and when I start it up, I hear something for 20 seconds and than never again not e´ven a whisper. I myself was very astonished, as the fan of pacarana used to anoy me (not to talk about the Capybara). it is really completely quiet, unbelievable after decades of "Kyma-fans":-)
Last edited by warnton on Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

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musicaespressiva wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:49 am The interesting thing is that I’m not seeing a lot of Pacaranas for sale now (not here or on reverb at least). Users seem to keep them, and not only because Symbolic Sound don’t ship immediately when you order. Those on Reverb right now are priced too high in my opinion, compared to a new system, and they’re not selling. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong place.

Also, I’m a bit confused on all this stress on supporting not so high quality audio interface, motu earlier and focusrite now. I read prism sound and metric halo too in pacarana list of compatible audio interfaces, but why not rme? Why there’s no usb or firewire rme interfaces support for pacarana?
There hasn't been a flood of used systems as far as I've seen either. Some of it is because there are many systems owned by schools and companies so those don't hit the used market generally. For individual users, could also be a matter of timing but I know a few people who plan on keeping their Pacarana along side their new hardware since you can use both side by side or that they don't really feel the need to upgrade because the Pacarana is working fine for their needs.

All class compliant audio interfaces should work with the new Pacarama. The list on the website is a list of those that have been validated and tested by users, not a comprehensive list. RME should work just fine in Universal Mode, I'll be testing that soon. RME's normal drivers are proprietary so that outside of SSC's control.
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Re: Kyma: General Topic, Resources, Q&A

Post by musicaespressiva »

Is the old CM Motormix still supported with bi-directional data stream?
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musicaespressiva wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:14 pm Is the old CM Motormix still supported with bi-directional data stream?
Yes and confirmed here: https://kyma.symbolicsound.com/qa/6228/ ... etto-setup

I love my Motormix :)
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