Stretch, Granular or something else?

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dr. doom
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Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by dr. doom »

Hello, I was wondering what sort of processing you would go for to get a result like this one.
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ignatius
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by ignatius »

sounds like mostly time/pitch manipulation. if you time stretch and resample a sound then play that sound as a sample in a sampler you often get textures like those.

some granular processors can do it especially if the processor/plug in or whatever has a 'freeze' button to freeze the buffer then keep manipulating the other parameters.

also, something like soundhack will get you there but not sure what systems it's still compatible with.
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by dr. doom »

Could it be FFT based? Do you use any granular software that has a freeze function?
I have some of the Soundhack plugins but I don't have the Pvoc Kit which has the spiralstretch. Probably that's the one you mean?
Thanks.
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ignatius
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by ignatius »

i was thinking of the soundhack standalone app which has many offline processes for time/pitch/phasevocoding etc. but the plug ins do a lot of things.

i don't think the link you posted is spectral.. sounds more granular to me or simply timestretched audio that was resampled and played like a sample. it's a common technique for those kinds of sounds.

most granular plug ins i've used have a 'freeze' button. many maxfor live devices that are granular or spectral do as well.

if you use ableton and have max for live i recommend Woulg's GrainSpec. worth the price for sure. it can do all those things you hear in the link you posted and many many more and lot's of of other weird shit. it's pretty amazing. the walkthrough explains a lot and has sound demos.



also kentaro's devices are all excellent and he has some granular things.



but there's lot's of vst's too.. all have their own flavor.





but if you freeze a buffer and modulate the pitch of it w/an LFO you can get a lot of weird stuff from a granular plug in effect or synth.

also, you should experiment with extreme time stretching and listen to how it sounds. take a 10 second sound that has some dynamics and pitch changes in it and stretch to be like 1 minute long. the pitch changes etc get all stretched out to make those weird morphing sounds. it's good sample fodder.

can do a lot of weird shit like that w/things like Melodyne. but your DAW can do it too. 2 track editors as well. some are free.
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by dr. doom »

Thank you ignatius, great information.
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bedhead777
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by bedhead777 »

Listened to that album (which is great - thanks!). Sounds like that track is made up of elements from ost2 and ost3. It could be granular, though some of the ‘grains’ sound fairly large in size for typical granular synthesis. It could be something closer to sample loop start and end points being modulated and then being tweaked with some pitch manipulations.
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by dr. doom »

bedhead777 wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 5:39 pm Listened to that album (which is great - thanks!). Sounds like that track is made up of elements from ost2 and ost3. It could be granular, though some of the ‘grains’ sound fairly large in size for typical granular synthesis. It could be something closer to sample loop start and end points being modulated and then being tweaked with some pitch manipulations.
I just found the label it's pretty cool.
Yeah definitely some sort of stretching and pitch manipulation.
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by PianoPets »

Yeah, it’s an interesting album. In parts, it reminds me of some of the works by artists like Helena Gough, John Wall and Bjarni Gunnarsson (all highly recommended, by the way).

I noticed on the album page, that it was tagged with ‘super collider’. So I suspect there might be some kind of SC patch involved here with different kinds of time / pitch / spectral / granular processing involved as mentioned by some of the other members above.

Very inspiring.
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bedhead777
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by bedhead777 »

PianoPets wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 4:57 am Yeah, it’s an interesting album. In parts, it reminds me of some of the works by artists like Helena Gough, John Wall and Bjarni Gunnarsson (all highly recommended, by the way).

I noticed on the album page, that it was tagged with ‘super collider’. So I suspect there might be some kind of SC patch involved here with different kinds of time / pitch / spectral / granular processing involved as mentioned by some of the other members above.

Very inspiring.
Ah, that would make sense! That’d be very apt for super collider or something like Max. Knot Invariants by Gough is amazing!
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by bedhead777 »

ignatius wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:22 pm i was thinking of the soundhack standalone app which has many offline processes for time/pitch/phasevocoding etc. but the plug ins do a lot of things.

i don't think the link you posted is spectral.. sounds more granular to me or simply timestretched audio that was resampled and played like a sample. it's a common technique for those kinds of sounds.

most granular plug ins i've used have a 'freeze' button. many maxfor live devices that are granular or spectral do as well.

if you use ableton and have max for live i recommend Woulg's GrainSpec. worth the price for sure. it can do all those things you hear in the link you posted and many many more and lot's of of other weird shit. it's pretty amazing. the walkthrough explains a lot and has sound demos.



also kentaro's devices are all excellent and he has some granular things.



but there's lot's of vst's too.. all have their own flavor.





but if you freeze a buffer and modulate the pitch of it w/an LFO you can get a lot of weird stuff from a granular plug in effect or synth.

also, you should experiment with extreme time stretching and listen to how it sounds. take a 10 second sound that has some dynamics and pitch changes in it and stretch to be like 1 minute long. the pitch changes etc get all stretched out to make those weird morphing sounds. it's good sample fodder.

can do a lot of weird shit like that w/things like Melodyne. but your DAW can do it too. 2 track editors as well. some are free.
Great recommendations! Thank you for these.

Seconding Kentaro’s work. His devices are great.
dr. doom
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by dr. doom »

One thing about that Phil Julian track are the fast pitch/time changes which sound like what you would get if you change the time setting of a delay. You can't get that with most Granular synths because you can't turn off the timestretch that is applied so that the pitch doesn't change with the playhead speed setting/movement. So probably there is something else that does the the pitch changes or the timestretch doesn't exist or can be turned off like in the GrainSpec plugin ignatius posted?
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by colb »

dr. doom wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:11 am Hello, I was wondering what sort of processing you would go for to get a result like this one.
Sound to me like some of the pitch changes are still correlated with playback speed changes here, so maybe not all granular of fft/phase vocoder, rather a mixture of that and complex editing just varying sample playback rate, sometimes continuously, and sometimes with glitchy discontinuities, then reprocessing the results, then again iterating multiple times.
Maybe also some FFT stretching and shifting in there at times too. Mostly it's the editing process though, ie. not the tools themselves, but the skill in using them to sculpt the sound.

One thing is that when the sample is taken down to very slow speeds, there is still high frequency content, so some reprocessing involved somewhere to add that in... maybe some distortion of some kind... who knows :)

Taking some original content playing with the modulating the playback rate (pitch) and/or granular and/or FFT pitch shifter... chopping with a beat slicer, stick it hot through a compressor or some saturation, eq, then back to the start again... or something...
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by PianoPets »

colb wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 11:21 am
dr. doom wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:11 am Hello, I was wondering what sort of processing you would go for to get a result like this one.
Mostly it's the editing process though, ie. not the tools themselves, but the skill in using them to sculpt the sound.
Much agreed! Having the right tools like those mentioned above can make the building blocks in this genre. But to create a track with meaningful development like this one, the most important thing is the manual editing process.

That is where the real art begins.
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dr. doom
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by dr. doom »

I agree that editing is a crucial part of this sort of sample based music.
This one by Autechre sounds like it has similar techniques:
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by DM-BR »

I used to know Phil Julian, he definitely does some work power starving DSP bits to get glitchy / stuttery effects. I might be wrong, but I think he wrote some bespoke plugins himself.
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by dr. doom »

DM-BR wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 6:13 am I used to know Phil Julian, he definitely does some work power starving DSP bits to get glitchy / stuttery effects. I might be wrong, but I think he wrote some bespoke plugins himself.
Yeah or he might be using Supercollider.

For those that have Ableton M4L's Pitch and Time Machines pack has some cool samplers for this sort of thing.
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by cheapmachines »

dr. doom wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:11 am Hello, I was wondering what sort of processing you would go for to get a result like this one.
Slightly tedious answer I'm afraid but that particular track is all computer generated, using the ppooll environment.

https://ppooll.klingt.org/

I have a custom patch in that which uses the Max/MSP object ports of the Gendyn Supercollider ugen:

https://github.com/sbl/sc-max

Fairly long section was recorded using that patch (basically two or three fluctuating oscillators), that was then put through the granular synthesiser in ppooll, so the pitch variations you hear throughout the final track are a mixture of those in the original recording and those that are introduced by the granular synthesis process.

ppooll.jpg

That window to the right allows you to draw pitch / speed information in real time and record the results, there's quite a bit of that going on in the final track.

Interesting bits were then chopped out and reassembled in Reaper.
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Last edited by cheapmachines on Sun May 15, 2022 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
dr. doom
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Re: Stretch, Granular or something else?

Post by dr. doom »

cheapmachines wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 am
dr. doom wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 4:11 am Hello, I was wondering what sort of processing you would go for to get a result like this one.
Slightly tedious answer I'm afraid but that particular track is all computer generated, using the ppooll environment.

https://ppooll.klingt.org/

I have a custom patch in that that uses the Max/MSP object ports of the Gendyn Supercollider ugen:

https://github.com/sbl/sc-max

Fairly long section was recorded using that patch (basically two or three fluctuating oscillators), that was then put through the granular synthesiser in ppooll, so the pitch variations you hear throughout the final track are a mixture of those in the original recording and those that are introduced by the granular synthesis process.


ppooll.jpg


That window to the right allows you to draw pitch / speed information in real time and record the results, there's quite a bit of that going on in the final track.

Interesting bits were then chopped out and reassembled in Reaper.
Wow. Thank you for the reply Mr. Julian. Very much appreciated : )
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