Serge Onkyo ideas

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ketem13
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Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by ketem13 »

I found that interesting article about Onkyo 'genre' in Tokyo.
I then listen to that album made by Sachiko M, Toshimaru Nakamura and Otomo Yoshihide.

The esthetics of that music is very much appealing to me. Much of space between events, silent sounds, simple scratchy noises (one might say ugly, but yet so moving sounds)

Does anyone have some input on the above? one might explorer those places with his serge and can share some thoughts?
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revtor
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by revtor »

I hear the idea, and I appreciate it.

Serge is the electronic sound experimental playground. Couples well with “philosophical” genres like this for sure.
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ryangaston
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by ryangaston »

I just LOVE this style of music, and love exploring similar sound worlds on the Serge.

I’ve found the wave multipliers and triple waveshaper are excellent for these types of sounds/sparse explorations using feedback alone (feedback with the second wave multiplier is particularly special imo).

The variable bandwidth filter is also amazing, either inserted in a feedback path, or used to thin out/animate more dense feedback textures into something gentler/more airy/scratchy/spacious

Looking forward to other ideas as well of course :)
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by ryangaston »

Incidentally—I think there’s a lot of crossover between Ankersmit’s sounds and the sounds of onkyo. He’s where I first learned about the various wave multiplier feedback tricks, around the same time I learned about yoshihide, nakamura, and sachiko m.

Looking back, that was all pretty profoundly inspirational to me, probably in no small part because of the fact I encountered them at near exactly the same time.
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Peake
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by Peake »

ketem13 wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 1:50 am I found that interesting article about Onkyo 'genre' in Tokyo.
I then listen to that album made by Sachiko M, Toshimaru Nakamura and Otomo Yoshihide.
Nice
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luketeaford
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by luketeaford »

Serge is awesome for this. Everywhere you look/listen, there are lots of surprising little sounds. NCOM can feedback on itself and make weird little clicks and whines, too. Reseq and VCF2. Patching feedback with the aforementioned TWS and VCM will get you into that territory too, especially if you have some filters or processors to put in the feedback paths.
ketem13
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by ketem13 »

This let me think - Do you guys are using a compressor at the end of your chain before your mixer/audio interface?
Dealing with much little/small sounds and with harsh, more loud noise sound could bring a large dynamic differences between events. How do you deal with that?
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Peake
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by Peake »

Generally, a compressor into a limiter is a good idea at the end of the signal chain when mixing. EQ boosts before it obviously does something different than afterward. Individual instruments/tracks the user knows will be loud would benefit from their own compression and/or limiting.
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by ThanosF »

luketeaford wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 2:57 pm NCOM can feedback on itself and make weird little clicks and whines, too.
Do you mind sharing a feedback patch using the NCOM? Such a weird module!
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revtor
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by revtor »

ketem13 wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 12:57 am This let me think - Do you guys are using a compressor at the end of your chain before your mixer/audio interface?
Dealing with much little/small sounds and with harsh, more loud noise sound could bring a large dynamic differences between events. How do you deal with that?
Isn’t dynamic range a part of the Onkyo experience? So you don’t want to squash it too much! But a brickwall limiter to save your speakers, yes always a good idea during more experimental Serge sessions live into a power amp.
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Peake
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by Peake »

Yes, I'm talking about protection from unexpected excursion, not over-taming.
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by medium Rob »

ryangaston wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:46 am Incidentally—I think there’s a lot of crossover between Ankersmit’s sounds and the sounds of onkyo. He’s where I first learned about the various wave multiplier feedback tricks, around the same time I learned about yoshihide, nakamura, and sachiko m.

Looking back, that was all pretty profoundly inspirational to me, probably in no small part because of the fact I encountered them at near exactly the same time.
I've only heard 3-4 albums of Ankersmit's work, and while I find it to be fantastic and engaging (texturally and conceptually), it seems overtly busy and varied (within a particular confines) with sustained periods of lively, or animated, sound activity. My understanding of Onkyokei music is that it's very reductive, minimal, with spare gestures and a very restrained sense of expression. I wouldn't associate Ankersmit's out with Onkyo, but this bit from Wiki could apply to his work-

Onkyo improvisation, "explores the fine-grained textural details of acoustic and electronic sound." - this definition definitely applies to Thomas Ankersmit's recent-ish releases.

I suppose that, when I hear the word Onkyo, or "Onkyokei", I think of artists like Sachiko M, Taku Sugimoto, Toshimaru Nakamura, Antoine Beuger and the Wandelweiser collective (loosely, in general)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandelweiser
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ryangaston
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by ryangaston »

medium Rob wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 am
ryangaston wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:46 am Incidentally—I think there’s a lot of crossover between Ankersmit’s sounds and the sounds of onkyo. He’s where I first learned about the various wave multiplier feedback tricks, around the same time I learned about yoshihide, nakamura, and sachiko m.

Looking back, that was all pretty profoundly inspirational to me, probably in no small part because of the fact I encountered them at near exactly the same time.
I've only heard 3-4 albums of Ankersmit's work, and while I find it to be fantastic and engaging (texturally and conceptually), it seems overtly busy and varied (within a particular confines) with sustained periods of lively, or animated, sound activity. My understanding of Onkyokei music is that it's very reductive, minimal, with spare gestures and a very restrained sense of expression. I wouldn't associate Ankersmit's out with Onkyo, but this bit from Wiki could apply to his work-

Onkyo improvisation, "explores the fine-grained textural details of acoustic and electronic sound." - this definition definitely applies to Thomas Ankersmit's recent-ish releases.

I suppose that, when I hear the word Onkyo, or "Onkyokei", I think of artists like Sachiko M, Taku Sugimoto, Toshimaru Nakamura, Antoine Beuger and the Wandelweiser collective (loosely, in general)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wandelweiser
Oh, absolutely agreed! I’m not saying that Ankersmit could be classified as making onkyo—just that there’s an embrace in both his music and onkyo of similar sound qualities and textures. Ankersmit is considerably more dense and bombastic much of the time, and on a structural level, not terribly similar imo. But for someone looking to make onkyo-like sounds on a Serge, I think there’s a lot of sonic technique (if not philosophy/orchestration) to be learned from Ankersmit.

And yes, I also feel Wandelweiser has a very similar spirit to onkyo. Coincidentally, I actually played on one Wandelweiser record in, oh, 2015 or so, composed by Luke Martin.

Cheers! :guinness:
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by ThanosF »

medium Rob wrote: Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 am
ryangaston wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 10:46 am Incidentally—I think there’s a lot of crossover between Ankersmit’s sounds and the sounds of onkyo. He’s where I first learned about the various wave multiplier feedback tricks, around the same time I learned about yoshihide, nakamura, and sachiko m.

Looking back, that was all pretty profoundly inspirational to me, probably in no small part because of the fact I encountered them at near exactly the same time.
I wouldn't associate Ankersmit's out with Onkyo, but this bit from Wiki could apply to his work-
That is definitely true. Not sure why his name is mentioned here actually. I know his work very well and has nothing to do with Onkyo (or 'lowercase' as it is also known in the US. Ankersmith is a legend of Serge feedback systems, using matrix mixers and a hands-on live approach while most of his peers are still using laptops. I find his music to be much more exciting with raw live qualities and even if it's edited in the albums, the parts are always live recorded. I think we should go back to Onkyo though. There is a great discussion on the lines forum: https://llllllll.co/t/lowercase-onkyoke ... tion/36472
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by Mourtwik »

While the Serge is great for creating the detailed sound textures common to onkyo/eai I think that you're going to need to develop a lot of restraint to keep yourself to the genre's intended limited palette, and not get lost in the endless possibilities of the machine. At least that's my experience :)
ketem13
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Re: Serge Onkyo ideas

Post by ketem13 »

Mourtwik wrote: Mon May 16, 2022 6:33 am While the Serge is great for creating the detailed sound textures common to onkyo/eai I think that you're going to need to develop a lot of restraint to keep yourself to the genre's intended limited palette, and not get lost in the endless possibilities of the machine. At least that's my experience :)
That is true,
I thought about it a lot lately. Especially when you make a large feedback patch with lots of modules - it is very hard to hold yourself back and not turning plenty of knobs. In the experiment process is fine, but when you want to actually compose something and play live, I think one should know what knobs to play with (?)
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