Polyphony & Recall for tonal/chordal music on the 200e?

Discussing some incredible modules that don't quite fit into the other forum categories.

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Kent
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Polyphony & Recall for tonal/chordal music on the 200e?

Post by Kent » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:16 pm

I know that Lyonel and Dougcl are aware of the 'jitter' and tuning instability incurred when the 256e & 210e are used in a CV's signal path. I tried to tune a 261e with either, or both, of these units in the signal flow and the pitch was audibly wavering at all times.

My end goal is to use my future system live and make use of the recall. I worry (perhaps needlessly) that if I rely upon the 210e then things may well get goofy or out of control on stage. I've already been surprised once when my Voyager decided to drift by a semi-tone(ish) after 3 or 4 songs in a set. It was layered with the laptop and the initial notes were dismaying to say the least.

Also, how does one go about obtaining polyphony, via the 225e or 222e, on the 200e system? Seeing as how there isn't a downloadable manual, I can't figure that out on my lonesome. The 222e seems pretty straight forward, but the 225e with polyphony eludes me.
Apparently, Mr. Richard Lainhardt foregoes the 225e for this purpose and uses the CV outputs of his Haken.

Thanks guys,

A Newb That Needs To Know

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Post by dkcg » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:10 pm

The 225e, from what I understand, is the most precise way to get notes to be where they should be, probably since it uses the internal bus.

I think, and don't quote me on it, when you send the 225e polyphony, the first note on goes to the first available slot in the internal bus or external CV/velocity/gate section (or both), the second note goes to the next available slot in that channel, and so on. It reminds me of how the MPU-101 would treat polyphony. I think this is how it works when the banks are in polyphony mode. When I use the Tetramaps, I usually use it in monophonic mode since I want the voices to stay synced to the notes instead of starting to round robin themselves into another channel. That's just me, I think of my system as 3 or 4 parallel voices instead of in terms of polyphony, especially since tunings start to get tricky since it can change based on the FM index.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Polyphony & Recall for tonal/chordal music on the 20

Post by bwhittington » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:24 pm

Kent wrote:'jitter' and tuning instability incurred when the 256e & 210e are used in a CV's signal path. I tried to tune a 261e with either, or both, of these units in the signal flow and the pitch was audibly wavering at all times.
That's lame. Does the pitch at least fluctuate in a delightfully detuned way, or is it more the "out of tune" way? I wonder why there would be gremlins at work like that in a digital module.

Cheers,
Brian

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Post by pickleinn » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:51 pm

I tried poly mode with my 225e yesterday and a midi keyboard.......it didn't work as I wanted it to. I was hoping for a monopoly style where if you push one key four times it cycles through the voices. Instead if you only play one note it always goes to the first bus. If you hit two notes at once the first one goes to the first bus and the second to the second bus.

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Re: Polyphony & Recall for tonal/chordal music on the 20

Post by dougcl » Wed Sep 22, 2010 9:56 pm

bwhittington wrote: That's lame. Does the pitch at least fluctuate in a delightfully detuned way, or is it more the "out of tune" way? I wonder why there would be gremlins at work like that in a digital module.

Cheers,
Brian
It can be nice. The only example I have of it is in this video:


It's the long goat-bleating sounds you hear over and over. Listen on both sides of 2:16, for example. That's the pitch CV jittering from the 210e. I was using the 210e to transpose a sequence by mixing two cv's together. I actually love the sound of it in this video. I hate to think of us as a bunch of church ladies pushing Buchla to defeat all the character of the 200e through purification.

My problem with the 256e is a little different. It doesn't do so well preserving pulses, and the output steps with a smooth input. As bad as this sounds, the module is very useful, as dkmg has pointed out many times. I use the 256e a lot for taming (and modulating) the CV's to the 291e and 292e, which is super important on the 200e. With all that said I think I am going to try a 254v, mostly for cv VCA duties, cv mixing, and pitch control.

Oh and other than oscillator pitch cv, the 210e seems great, in my opinion. You can hardwire your oscillator pitch cv routing, use the 210e for everything else. I was playing with that here http://soundcloud.com/dougcl/patch-test and keep in mind that the 210e is routing the envelope cv here, and does a fine job with it. Being able to dispatch different envelopes to different destinations in the 210e is really powerful. It does not strike me as glitchy or unreliable in any way.

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Post by bwhittington » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:52 pm

What are you doing at 2:16, using the attenuator? That certainly is a dramatic effect, though not at all an unpleasing one in that context. Adding subtle modulation to pitch cv's is a hobby for many of us anyway, but in the context of a matrix mixer, it seems like a pure signal would be most desirable, simply for the user to have control over that variable. Maybe B&A will should release "Church Lady" and "Twisted" versions of its Control and Signal Router. :lol:

I'm enjoying the module discussions this week. Lots of great ideas and information.

Cheers,
Brian

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Post by dougcl » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:18 am

The funny thing is I'm not touching the 210e at 2:16. I'm just adjusting the 292e. The 210e is mixing two pitch cv's together. I bring it in at about 1:00. All that goaty stuff is happening when the pitch cv hits certain levels in the 210e that cause it to rattle. If you put the 210e in the cv path, it is very likely this will happen. You can see it happens a lot in this video. Normally it's not noticeable, but it is apparent with pitch control. If you send the 250e straight to the oscillator, it doesn't happen at all.

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Post by Lyonel » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:07 am

Same things happen when you use the 266e Skew input. (same CPU as 256e/210e/291e VCAs).
From an authorized person : "these functions all use the cpu's built-in adc's which are woefully inadequate."

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Post by Lyonel » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:10 am

Ohh, just saw that i am a "Button Pusher" now ! :lol: :tu:

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Post by citizen mori » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:22 am

hallo kent,

i use my 200e for tonal works via the 225e with success.

functionally, within the 225e, two of the parameters available are midi channel and poly/mono selection... via these, you can set up polyphonic configurations. for example, you may set bus a and b to channel 1 in poly mode, and you have a duophonic configuration, and still are able to set c and d to channel 2 but in mono mode, and you have a sort of unison. alternately, set all four to channel one in poly mode and you have four voices.

i do not mind that voices are predictably scheduled in polyphonic mode. it is just a different way to work...

as for tuning stability, i have no problems, but i do not try to control pitch via the 210e, nor via the 256e. below is a simple piece of mine which uses the 200e in this way for the melodic pad. this patch is four voices polyphonic, utilizing four 259e modules (running pre-twisted firmware) with notes couriered via the midi busses a-d. the timbre modulations are done via manual knob twiddling and advancing the sequence in a pair of 291e modules using a separate midi channel.

the pad is of course processed quite a bit with outboard... compressor, chorus, delay & reverb... but it is not melodyned into behaving or anything like this.

http://soundcloud.com/citizenmori/romancing-the-rain

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Post by citizen mori » Thu Sep 23, 2010 5:29 am

Lyonel wrote:Ohh, just saw that i am a "Button Pusher" now ! :lol: :tu:
circlepusher? :mrgreen:

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Re: Polyphony & Recall for tonal/chordal music on the 20

Post by Lyonel » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:48 am

Kent wrote:I worry (perhaps needlessly) that if I rely upon the 210e then things may well get goofy or out of control on stage. I've already been surprised once when my Voyager decided to drift by a semi-tone(ish) after 3 or 4 songs in a set.
It will not drift.
You will just have a goat-bleating sound as every 200e users whom insert a 210e/256e/266e Skew between a tonal controller and an oscillator, have.
Sometimes it's cool, sometimes not.

sandyb

Post by sandyb » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:04 pm

Lyonel wrote:Ohh, just saw that i am a "Button Pusher" now ! :lol: :tu:
:hide:

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Post by Lyonel » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:47 am

:lol: :party:

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Post by Kent » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:20 am

Sandy, you should just change Lyonel's to 'The Ultimate Enabler'. Even though DK is definitely living up to his sub-handle.

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Post by Lyonel » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:27 am

I like very much "Button pusher" 8_)

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Post by dkcg » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:34 pm

Kent wrote:Sandy, you should just change Lyonel's to 'The Ultimate Enabler'. Even though DK is definitely living up to his sub-handle.
What'd I do? :oops: :twisted:

I only enable, you need a button pusher to get it started. :lol:

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