How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post your patches here! Put the format(s) in the subject.

Moderators: Kent, luketeaford, Joe.

jamos
Common Wiggler
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:23 pm
Location: Eugene Oregon

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by jamos » Mon May 17, 2021 3:17 pm

Here's a quick demo of my bagpipe patch.
Bagpipes.mp3
(633.69 KiB) Downloaded 4 times
I like showing it off because I have no other practical use for it...
Nord Modular G2 & G2X, Emulator X, MPC Live, and a growing Euro system.

User avatar
Dave Peck
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 4508
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 1:22 pm
Location: SF bay area

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by Dave Peck » Mon May 17, 2021 4:52 pm

Nice! But it needs quite a bit more randomized detuning. Listening to a real solo bagpipe recording, it's surprising how much pitch drift occurs in both the drone and melodic pipes (they each need their own separate random detuning, like from separate slow random LFOs).


Check out the severe detuning that randomly comes and goes every couple of seconds as the instrument sustains the high notes, starting at 4:00 in this video:

Last edited by Dave Peck on Mon May 17, 2021 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
wuff_miggler
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1276
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:11 pm
Location: Disney, Australia

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by wuff_miggler » Mon May 17, 2021 7:37 pm

jamos wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:17 pm
Here's a quick demo of my bagpipe patch.

Bagpipes.mp3

I like showing it off because I have no other practical use for it...
this is great - even sounds good without much verb!!
is this your nord patch jamos?

colb
Wiggling with Experience
Posts: 403
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:06 pm
Location: Scotland

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by colb » Mon May 17, 2021 8:39 pm

jamos wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:17 pm
Here's a quick demo of my bagpipe patch.

Bagpipes.mp3

I like showing it off because I have no other practical use for it...
Pretty good :). The only problem is that the tuning sounds diatonic to me which is wrong for bagpipes, at least highland pipes are definitely not diatonically tuned. Which is why tunes like amazing grace tend to sound awful and 'out of tune' when played on real pipes. Better IMO are traditional slow airs written for pipes. Not sure about Northumberland pipes (my favourite), Irish pipes etc.

Hmm... according to Wikipedia:
"Traditionally, certain notes were sometimes tuned slightly off from just intonation. For example, on some old chanters the D and high G would be somewhat sharp. According to Forsyth (1935),[10] the C and F holes were traditionally bored exactly midway between those for B and D and those for E and G, respectively, resulting in approximately a quarter-tone difference from just intonation, somewhat like a "blue" note in jazz.[11] Today, however, the notes of the chanter are usually tuned in just intonation to the Mixolydian scale. The two tenor drones are an octave below the keynote of the chanter (low A), and the bass drone two octaves below. There are some documented examples of other tunings: Forsyth lists three traditional drone tunings: Ellis, A3–A3–A2; Glen, A4–A4–A2; and Mackay, G3–B3–C2.[citation needed]"

So the suggestion is that modern pipes are now tuned to just intonation. To me this is terrible - the character of pipe music comes from those 'blue' notes - not sure how a piper could play the traditional repertoire correctly without them. There is a melancholic quality that cannot be achieved otherwise :waah:

User avatar
wuff_miggler
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1276
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:11 pm
Location: Disney, Australia

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by wuff_miggler » Mon May 17, 2021 8:52 pm

^ colb's location checks out :P

jamos
Common Wiggler
Posts: 232
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2018 3:23 pm
Location: Eugene Oregon

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by jamos » Tue May 18, 2021 7:18 pm

Yes, that is a nord patch. This one uses individual tuning per key, and I did use a table of tunings that I found... somewhere. Presumably based on Highland pipes. It is not strictly diatonic, but I may have used a strict just tuning, I will have to review it. Thx.
Nord Modular G2 & G2X, Emulator X, MPC Live, and a growing Euro system.

Dadodetres
Common Wiggler
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:23 pm

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by Dadodetres » Tue May 18, 2021 9:47 pm

jamos wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 3:17 pm
Here's a quick demo of my bagpipe patch.

Bagpipes.mp3

I like showing it off because I have no other practical use for it...

Nice!!!
Can you explain what is going on there?

User avatar
piper
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:42 pm
Location: USA

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by piper » Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:56 pm

I play highland bagpipes. I’ve made a pretty reasonable patch on the TX81Z (basically a DX7-II) A good chanter is bright and clear. The attack is close to instant. Full sustain, and fast decay. No gate. The challenge to synthesizing a really convincing chanter sound is the timbre of each note is different. The lower notes are louder and also more harmonically rich.

While it is true that many piper’s aren’t steady, the goal is for rock solid pitch with no wavering.

The scale is A mixolydian. So 2 sharps G A B C# D E F# G A. Modern pipes tune the low A to about 480. The tenor drones are an octave lower and the bass is an octave below that. The chanter notes are just to the drones, so the G is 30 cents flat compared to ET.

BlinkyLights
Ultra Wiggler
Posts: 995
Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:16 am

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by BlinkyLights » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:56 am

Kattefjaes wrote:
Sat May 15, 2021 5:12 pm
non-consensual and deeply ironic.
I read ironic there as erotic.

Still works.

User avatar
wuff_miggler
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1276
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:11 pm
Location: Disney, Australia

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by wuff_miggler » Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:51 am

piper wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:56 pm
I play highland bagpipes. I’ve made a pretty reasonable patch on the TX81Z (basically a DX7-II) A good chanter is bright and clear. The attack is close to instant. Full sustain, and fast decay. No gate. The challenge to synthesizing a really convincing chanter sound is the timbre of each note is different. The lower notes are louder and also more harmonically rich.

While it is true that many piper’s aren’t steady, the goal is for rock solid pitch with no wavering.

The scale is A mixolydian. So 2 sharps G A B C# D E F# G A. Modern pipes tune the low A to about 480. The tenor drones are an octave lower and the bass is an octave below that. The chanter notes are just to the drones, so the G is 30 cents flat compared to ET.
would you mind elaborating on the operator/carrier structure for that? keen to try it on both Sytrus/FM8 :D

User avatar
piper
Learning to Wiggle
Posts: 48
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:42 pm
Location: USA

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by piper » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:43 am

I used algorithm 3 -- two stacks of three operators with feedback on operator 6 set to max.

operator, ratio, level:
1, 2, 99
2, 1, 87
3, 8, 90
4, 2, 99
5, 1, 97
6, 19, 55


The envelopes need to be really fast, but not so fast as to produce clicking. Probably some of the modulators need to be slower. I was never satisficed with the envelopes I came up with.

User avatar
architexture
Common Wiggler
Posts: 242
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 2:59 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by architexture » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:48 am

Get a bagpipe and blow!

Nah really get an oscilloscope, look at the wave shape, now plugin and use oscillators (yes multiple) to recreate the waveshape.

User avatar
wuff_miggler
Super Deluxe Wiggler
Posts: 1276
Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:11 pm
Location: Disney, Australia

Re: How to create Bagpipe sound?

Post by wuff_miggler » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:45 pm

architexture wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:48 am
Get a bagpipe and blow!

Nah really get an oscilloscope, look at the wave shape, now plugin and use oscillators (yes multiple) to recreate the waveshape.
i tried this whole look at an acoustic sound via spectral analyzer, and remake it.
i was doing this with FM synthesis - i found setting the ratios + getting the fundamental pitches easy.
but getting complexity in the timbre was a miss.

thank you piper - iw ill be trying this tonight :-)

Post Reply

Return to “Synthesis Techniques”