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DIY: Analog Fader Flip

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AdotLone
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DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by AdotLone »

I am currently designing a live performance based module with a fader as one of it's controls. As it is performance based I want it to be as accessible and easy to use as possible. With that in mind being able to flip the module to place it in the most suitable position for the end user is a goal of mine. I'm definitely not a big brain circuit kind of person and am looking for any ideas on how to flip the direction of a fader easily in a circuit. My thought is using a jumper to determine what direction is up for the slider, but I have no idea what that circuit would look like. Any ideas, resources, advice, or examples of circuits already using this implementation would be greatly appreciated!
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Dave Peck
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by Dave Peck »

Just design the entire module so it can be mounted in the cabinet in either orientation. The user can just flip the whole thing around. Like some of the modules from Synthwerks.

It mostly just amounts to how you design the graphics for the panel.
AdotLone
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by AdotLone »

I get that part, but if they flip it, the fader will be sending a stronger signal when it is brought down instead of up, which obviously still works, but it goes against what we have been conditioned to believe about faders. I would like it to be as easy to use as possible. I think I could have a circuit ran to the normal legs of the fader and another ran to the reverse of that and then have the jumper switch between?
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Dave Peck
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by Dave Peck »

I guess I don't understand - why would you want to flip the module's physical orientation in the cabinet unless you are trying to flip the direction of the fader?
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soup
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by soup »

It's probably best if you upload a drawing of what you want but ... how about a slide pot with a switched jack above and below it with both jacks normaled to 0V. Will work as an attenuator with a signal in either jack or a blend with signals in both jacks.
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emmaker
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by emmaker »

Put an antenuverter with bias on the output of the slider. You'll be able to control the amplitude and sign with the attenuverter. With the bias you can control the base level.
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KSS
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by KSS »

Dave Peck wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:39 pm I guess I don't understand - why would you want to flip the module's physical orientation in the cabinet unless you are trying to flip the direction of the fader?
To put the jacks above or below the faders. Skiff vs vertical module orientation
Just flipping module orientation, without fader reversal electrically,
Jacks below, fader moving away from them increases signal.
Jacks above, fader moving away from them still increases signal.<--Not desired operation.

2 PCB JMPs reverse the fader connection to allow expected opertion in both positions
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KSS
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by KSS »

Use a 2x2 4 pin HDR. Set it up with the shorting plugs both horizontal = skiff operation. Jacks above sliders. Horizontal JMPS = horizontal module.
Vertical JMPs orientation = swap ends of the fader. Relates to vertical orientation with jacks below fader.

Use 1 and 3 for the fader element ends as those are the typical lead numbering. Use 2 for signal in. AKA 'TO' the fader. Use 4 for the 0V-GND. 4 and 'floor' = ground -or signal floor- is the memory helper. '4 on the floor' if you're a car person.

Reading the 2x2 HDR L to R and top to bottom. 2,3,1,4.

Horizontal JMPs connects 2-3 and 1-4 . This is the standard pot-fader input on many or most modules.
Vertical JMPs connects 2-1 and 3-4. This reverses the pot-fader element.

If the horizontal and vertical of the PCB doesn't match the actual physical module then a 90 degree rotation of the 2x2 on the PCB -keeping all connections the same- takes care of that and put everything in proper physical and electrical relationship.
Treat utility modules as stars instead of backup singers.
Treat power supplies like Rockstars instead of roadies!
Chase magic sound, not magic parts.
AdotLone
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by AdotLone »

Dave Peck wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:39 pm I guess I don't understand - why would you want to flip the module's physical orientation in the cabinet unless you are trying to flip the direction of the fader?

The Fader is on one side of the module and knobs and jacks are on the other side. I am designing it to sit on the left side of my case with the fader easily accessible on the outer edge and knobs and cables feeding into the rack. If someone were to want it on the right side of their case currently it would have all the wires coming back over the fader and would make it less accessible. If it can be made to easily be flipped it opens up its usefulness to more people.
AdotLone
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by AdotLone »

soup wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:18 pm It's probably best if you upload a drawing of what you want but ... how about a slide pot with a switched jack above and below it with both jacks normaled to 0V. Will work as an attenuator with a signal in either jack or a blend with signals in both jacks.
I'm not sure I have space, but this gives me some food for thought, thanks!
AdotLone
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by AdotLone »

emmaker wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:43 pm Put an antenuverter with bias on the output of the slider. You'll be able to control the amplitude and sign with the attenuverter. With the bias you can control the base level.
There will be attenuverters on each output and they could have bias. Hmmm
AdotLone
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by AdotLone »

KSS wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:29 am
Dave Peck wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 9:39 pm I guess I don't understand - why would you want to flip the module's physical orientation in the cabinet unless you are trying to flip the direction of the fader?
To put the jacks above or below the faders. Skiff vs vertical module orientation
Just flipping module orientation, without fader reversal electrically,
Jacks below, fader moving away from them increases signal.
Jacks above, fader moving away from them still increases signal.<--Not desired operation.

2 PCB JMPs reverse the fader connection to allow expected opertion in both positions
Exactly!
JMP is jumper? I really have a couple days experience while I have been trying to see if my idea would even work...
AdotLone
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by AdotLone »

KSS wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:48 am Use a 2x2 4 pin HDR. Set it up with the shorting plugs both horizontal = skiff operation. Jacks above sliders. Horizontal JMPS = horizontal module.
Vertical JMPs orientation = swap ends of the fader. Relates to vertical orientation with jacks below fader.

Use 1 and 3 for the fader element ends as those are the typical lead numbering. Use 2 for signal in. AKA 'TO' the fader. Use 4 for the 0V-GND. 4 and 'floor' = ground -or signal floor- is the memory helper. '4 on the floor' if you're a car person.

Reading the 2x2 HDR L to R and top to bottom. 2,3,1,4.

Horizontal JMPs connects 2-3 and 1-4 . This is the standard pot-fader input on many or most modules.
Vertical JMPs connects 2-1 and 3-4. This reverses the pot-fader element.

If the horizontal and vertical of the PCB doesn't match the actual physical module then a 90 degree rotation of the 2x2 on the PCB -keeping all connections the same- takes care of that and put everything in proper physical and electrical relationship.
This is starting to make some sense to me. Thank you for the detailed response! It sounds like this is the way to do it.
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Pelsea
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by Pelsea »

The simple solution is just to have two outputs, one going each way.
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soup
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by soup »

Interesting idea ... most of the better slide pots (conductive plastic) are more readily available as dual gang. It would be simple to wire one up so it's always working in both directions.
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KSS
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by KSS »

@soup
That only changes the required HDR from 4 pins to 3. To choose from the two wipers -pin 2 on most faders.

Expensive faders with a second track can easily have that 2nd track linear only. It's being used as a position indicator and won't be much good for audio without tapering resistors.
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KSS
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by KSS »

Pelsea wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:21 pm The simple solution is just to have two outputs, one going each way.
That's only simple if you have a dual fader, or if you're already using active circuitry with inversion.

For a single track passive its a no-go.
Treat utility modules as stars instead of backup singers.
Treat power supplies like Rockstars instead of roadies!
Chase magic sound, not magic parts.
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Pelsea
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by Pelsea »

Actually, why flip the fader? Just have duplicate jacks top and bottom or left and right.
Books and tutorials on modular synthesis at http://peterelsea.com
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KSS
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by KSS »

@Pelsea
Clearly you missed the memo that all euro modules be a small as possible :lol:

With a 60mm fader you barely have room to put the jacks top and bottom. With a 100mm fader they''ll have to go on the sides.
And you still have to include active circuitry or use a double track fader.
AdotLone
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by AdotLone »

KSS wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:56 pm @Pelsea
Clearly you missed the memo that all euro modules be a small as possible :lol:

With a 60mm fader you barely have room to put the jacks top and bottom. With a 100mm fader they''ll have to go on the sides.
And you still have to include active circuitry or use a double track fader.
A 100mm fader wont fit vertically on a 3U circuit board from what I could tell. I wanted the longest fader I could fit and all of the 100mm ones I found were 120mm+ total footprint and 110mm is the total height of what will fit between the rails. I had to go with a 60mm fader, but that allows me some room above and below for some switches.
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hamildad
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Re: DIY: Analog Fader Flip

Post by hamildad »

AdotLone wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:30 pm if they flip it, the fader will be sending a stronger signal when it is brought down instead of up, which obviously still works, but it goes against what we have been conditioned to believe about faders.
Working with old radio broadcast desks in the noughties, all faders go from top (closed) to bottom (open).

This is to keep closed faders as far away from accidently being opened, (avoid during love broadcasts) and you can get more detailed control as you bring something nearer you, as your reach decreases.

It makes a lot of sense and is how faders work in my mind... But I admit I am very much one of the exceptions...
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