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Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Discussion and support for Expert Sleepers' Silent Way software and hardware.

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Dark Barn
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Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by Dark Barn » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:44 pm

Here’s a few troubles I’ve had with the ES-5 Controller, one is that I am able to get it to send MIDI to my Gotharman’s SoazeDrum but I get many missing or stuck notes. In trying to troubleshoot this I have come across posts where users test their set up by sending an output from Es-5 Controller output to test their set up. For starters I can’t find this test documented anywhere other than in various forums posts, if this procedure is in a manual somewhere could you please point me to it.

In my case I have the Es-5 connected to an Es-3 and am using the Outputs 1 knob in Es-5 Controller for this test, and in Logic Pro 10.7 I have found that I need to set the gain on the Es-5 track 0.1 db higher than is expected to get the lights on the Es-5 to light up singly, in the expected order. Is this possibly causing the issues I am having with using it as a midi output? Or are these two issues unrelated?

For more context I have another synth that has no problem following the Es-5 midi output, so is this also possibly an issue with this particular hardware device (SpazeDrum?)
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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by os » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:05 am

Dark Barn wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:44 pm
In my case I have the Es-5 connected to an Es-3 and am using the Outputs 1 knob in Es-5 Controller for this test, and in Logic Pro 10.7 I have found that I need to set the gain on the Es-5 track 0.1 db higher than is expected to get the lights on the Es-5 to light up singly, in the expected order. Is this possibly causing the issues I am having with using it as a midi output? Or are these two issues unrelated?
Quite possibly related. You shouldn't have to do weird track gains. That said, have you remembered to use the SW Logic Project plug-in?
Dark Barn wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:44 pm
For more context I have another synth that has no problem following the Es-5 midi output, so is this also possibly an issue with this particular hardware device (SpazeDrum?)
Could be. Since you don't mention the ESX-8MD I assume you're using the DJ-1000 cables. Sending MIDI in this manner is a kludge at best, and simply doesn't work with some receiving devices, especially at 44.1kHz. 48kHz is more reliable.

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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by Dark Barn » Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:27 am

os wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:05 am
Quite possibly related. You shouldn't have to do weird track gains. That said, have you remembered to use the SW Logic Project plug-in?
I am using that yes, and have tried a few different configurations before landing on one that works reliably. I was wondering if there was a gain trim on my interface (MOTU 1248) somewhere but I looked and I don't think so, there are for analog outputs but not for ADAT ones.
os wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:05 am
Could be. Since you don't mention the ESX-8MD I assume you're using the DJ-1000 cables. Sending MIDI in this manner is a kludge at best, and simply doesn't work with some receiving devices, especially at 44.1kHz. 48kHz is more reliable.
I am using the DJ-1000 cable and I am at 48k. I might try upgrading to the ESX-8MD, or just go the USB/Midi route for now in instances where I want to use the SpazeDrum this way. I got the ES-5 working beautifully as a midi to gate output and I'm very happy with that and the ES-3.
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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by Dark Barn » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:11 pm

So I did go ahead and get an ES8-XMD, and now I believe I do have some sort of issue with my ES-5, like I said above I can only get the ES-5 to light up in the correct order with a gain of 0.1 on the appropriate track, but this is not true for the ES8-XMD, which requires a gain of 0, furthermore while the ES-5 works with the gain set at 0.1 I get some digital bleed when starting a track and some extra gates on the first count. It seems I spoke prematurely earlier when saying it was working well. At this point I believe it to be a hardware issue with my ES-5.

EDIT: switching to Category B allows me to 'pass' both tests on the ES-5 and ESX-8MD with gain at 0, it's possible newer MacOS MOTU drivers put them back in the B Category?

Now, all I need to figure out:

1) I get a dead/half hit on the first note when starting the transport, I have fooled around with latency settings but haven't found the winning recipe yet, any advice is appreciated.

2) I don't understand how to instantiate more than one instance of ES-5 Controller in Logic, for multiple MIDI outs, when I put a new instance on a new track the previous track stops outputting MIDI. I've fooled around with the thru settings and track level audio sends and such but feel like I'm missing something. Any advice in this regard?

EDIT 2: all instances of the Es-5 controller need to be on the same track! In the case of Logic does this mean creating each ES-5 Controller as an audio effect on a software instrument track? And from here how do I point different midi sources inside Logic to the different inputs of the ES-5? Do I need to muck around in the ‘MIDI environment?’
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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by os » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:38 am

1) Can you capture the MIDI that's being sent? Not sure what a "dead/half hit" would be exactly.

2) If it's possible at all, the environment seems like the place to do it. Possibly the IAC busses would be an alternative.

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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by Dark Barn » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:31 pm

os wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:38 am
1) Can you capture the MIDI that's being sent? Not sure what a "dead/half hit" would be exactly.

2) If it's possible at all, the environment seems like the place to do it. Possibly the IAC busses would be an alternative.
So, I have abandoned using the Es-5 and 8MD for MIDI since I needed more than one out anyways, and it seems as though Logic doesn’t offer the MIDI routing that would be needed, moving onwards!

I have gone back to using only the Es-3 and Es-5. I am still having some troubles with the Es-5 in Logic (MOTU Interface which seems to be a category B). I have a matching pan law setting between SW Logic Project and Project settings, I can individually address each ES-5 Controller using the bitwise output controller, but I have the following two problems:

Every time I play the transport I get an inadvertent hit on the lowest bit (or C0 the way I have it set up) even with an empty sequence.

Any time I address the 8th output with G0 I get inadvertent hits on other outputs if I am simultaneously addressing them, for example if the sequence has Midi info that would address 8 and 5 (G0 and E0) I get hits on multiple outputs (8, 4, 3, 2, and 1 but not 5,) every output can be individually addressed, and every output can be addressed simultaneously without errors except for the 8th output. I’m not sure but I think there are still some scaling issues happening either in Logic, or with this interface.
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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by Dark Barn » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:45 am

Is it possible that Logic isn’t respecting or correctly loading SW Logic Project? I can address the es-5 outputs 0-128 correctly with ‘apply pan law to stereo balancers’ unchecked and 129-255 correctly with it checked. Changes made here in the project audio preferences are instant, however changes that *should* enable or break functionality in the SW Logic Project plugin have no effect.
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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by os » Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:35 am

I just tried it here with my RME interface and it all works fine. Unfortunately I don't currently have access to a MOTU interface to test. It could be that they've invented a new category and that neither A nor B is now right.

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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by Dark Barn » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:35 am

I found some unorthodox settings that seem to work for me, and resolve the two issues I was having. This is a quick post about it while I’m in line for coffee, I will follow up more thoroughly later.

I had to set the gate output in the MIDI Out section of ES-5 Controller to something other than 1/X, Logic or the ES plugin are sending something here on transport start, despite midi being set to off in this section.

I had to set output 2 in the outputs section of ES-5 Controller to 1, either the ES plugin, Logic, or my interface (most likely the interface, MOTU 1248) wasn’t correctly mixing the right channel to address bits 129-255, but this setting seems to have resolved that for me.

I only got to test this for a minute before leaving for work so I will follow up later if things run smoothly and provide screenshots of my settings.
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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by Dark Barn » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:58 pm

So yes, this seems to be working, all outputs of ES-5 addressable, alone or in any combination. Still it seems that in my case it does not matter whatever settings I choose for SW Logic Project, the settings shown in Project Preferences > Audio, and SW ES-5 Controller are working in my set-up with no change regardless of what choices I make to SW Logic Project, but in the screenshot I have them matching just in case it makes a difference for posterity's sake.
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Re: Silent Way / Logic troubles with ES-5 Controller

Post by os » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:05 am

Glad you found a solution. Thanks for the info.

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