Elektron Syntakt

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commoner
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by commoner »

Nelson Baboon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:38 pm but can knowing software on one context allow you to answer reliably that in another, programming a certain feature doesn't have complications?
As a software engineer, I can confirm that we're very good at making assumptions.

edit: Just to prevent myself from trailing off into a diatribe on how this is often too true, I'll just say that I'm mostly being facetious. :hihi:
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by commoner »

Nelson Baboon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:45 pm so, you're agreeing that it might not be as easy as it sounds conceptually?
Definitely, I was agreeing with you via sarcasm :hihi: . I'll agree that if the memory capacity exists and the controls support it, it's probably possible. But "easy"? Can't know that. Could be a rewrite of a lot of shit, you can't tell from the outside.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by seicocorp »

Never used song mode myself, prefer jamming on the fly, but isn't song mode kind of already possible if you just use it together with a Rytm, Octa or Analog Four? Like send program change and program the song on one of the bigger Elektrons and the smaller Syntakt, Digitakt or whatever will follow if you set it up to?
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by 22tape »

suboptimal wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 12:56 pm The song mode cynicism comes from the same issue being raised ad nauseum with every release.
I hear you, but isn't that also called market demand? It's obviously up to Elektron to listen to that market demand, or ignore it. To me, It seems like a strange business move to turn away money from new users over such an easy implementation.

No, I'm not gonna spend that kind of cash for an OT, A4 or Rytm for the sole purpose to "add" song mode to Syntakt/Digitakt.

Also, the MIDI loopback workaround + program changes isn't nearly a nice of a workflow as OT'/Rytm/A4's song mode. Which brings me to-- I don't recall people dissing Elektron for including song mode in those cases. Why is song mode golden in those cases, but shite in the others?
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by Nelson Baboon »

lol - has anyone dissed elektron or any other company for implementing song mode? I haven't seen that here. if a given feature is essential to your use of the instrument, just don't buy it. The syntakt is not essential to make music, obviously. It is a luxury. They seem to be selling out of these everywhere.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by 22tape »

Nelson Baboon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:31 pm lol - has anyone dissed elektron or any other company for implementing song mode? I haven't seen that here.
Well that’s my point. There’s been no complaints when song mode has been added to their other gear, yet there’s lots of complaints against adding it to others.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by 22tape »

Nelson Baboon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:54 pm i haven't seen any complaints about adding it. just comments that it isn't important to people
Plenty of people over the years have made the argument against adding song mode. Most of them go like-- "It's a machine intended for live use so no song mode is needed." Even more occurrences have come from people who complain that other people are asking for song mode. So no, in these cases they may not be complaining against song mode, but they seem to be needlessly adversarial against people who think it's important and easy to implement.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by Wubz »

22tape wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:28 pm
Nelson Baboon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:54 pm i haven't seen any complaints about adding it. just comments that it isn't important to people
Plenty of people over the years have made the argument against adding song mode. Most of them go like-- "It's a machine intended for live use so no song mode is needed." Even more occurrences have come from people who complain that other people are asking for song mode. So no, they may not be complaining against song mode, but they seem to be needlessly adversarial against people who think it's important.
No one is “arguing against adding song mode”. Why would anyone argue against a new feature being added.
The monotonously simple fact is that it isn’t there and isn’t likely to be.
There is SO MUCH amazing gear coming out these days.
Buy something else.
Have fun.
Make tunes.

If you really want to hit play and have your whole song play start to end well, I don’t think that technology is very hard to find.
Last edited by Wubz on Fri May 13, 2022 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by albiedamned »

Elektron should implement song mode in the (Digi|Syn)(Takt|Tone) devices. We should move in in this thread.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by LameAim »

Keep thinking about subbing out my Digitone for one of these.

I currently use the Digitone in two capacities - as a secondary poly synth (primary being the Super 6 Desktop) and as a secondary synth percussion source (primary being samples in the S2400.) As a groove box, the Syntakt seems like it would weaker in the first category but stronger (or at least quicker) in the second.

Honestly speaking - I gel with the Elektron interface and methodology a lot better on their samplers and drum machines as opposed to their synths. Still, I should spend some time with the Syntakt at the shop and reevaluate which of the roles described above matters more for me and my needs.
Last edited by LameAim on Sat May 14, 2022 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by joey »

i made a pattern with one at superbooth:

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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by DOTSmusic »

Wubz wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:36 pm
22tape wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 3:28 pm
Nelson Baboon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 2:54 pm i haven't seen any complaints about adding it. just comments that it isn't important to people
Plenty of people over the years have made the argument against adding song mode. Most of them go like-- "It's a machine intended for live use so no song mode is needed." Even more occurrences have come from people who complain that other people are asking for song mode. So no, they may not be complaining against song mode, but they seem to be needlessly adversarial against people who think it's important.
No one is “arguing against adding song mode”. Why would anyone argue against a new feature being added.
The monotonously simple fact is that it isn’t there and isn’t likely to be.
There is SO MUCH amazing gear coming out these days.
Buy something else.
Have fun.
Make tunes.

If you really want to hit play and have your whole song play start to end well, I don’t think that technology is very hard to find.
Syntakt is my very first Elektron device, and I'm definitely digging it. It's quite literally the only piece of music gear I ever bought that I clicked with immediately. But I'm still on the fence about whether I'm going to keep it or not. And the reason for that is..? you guessed it! It doesn't have song mode. Yes, I've been one of the most vocal people in this thread about Syntakt not having song mode. I apologize, I swear I'm not this annoying in real life.

Syntakt was kind of a gamble and a revelation for me. I went in having no experience with Elektron and also knowing that song mode is important to me. But said f*k it! I justified making the purchase by telling myself Elektron devices never really lose their value, and I could easily sell it off or trade it. My dilemma is.. I actually really like this machine, so what now? Do I keep it and be forever frustrated with the lack of song mode or do I get rid of it and find something that has what I want but most likely won't be nearly as fun to use. :bang:
Last edited by DOTSmusic on Sat May 14, 2022 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by stickman »

commoner wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:34 pm
Nelson Baboon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:33 pm i'm curious. how do people know that it would be easy to implement?
The synth community is comprised of mostly embedded-software engineers.
:D also people who design products and do marketing strategy and know best

I guess it's easy because it's there on other synths (e.g. A4) with pretty much an identical interface. It's been built already.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by ModusOp »

DOTSmusic wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:37 amSo what now? :bang:
Have you tried the midi loopback technique yet? It seems like a legit workaround and you only sacrifice one track. I’m just saying, if you like everything else about the machine, and not having song mode is turning out to be the deal breaker, it’s worth a shot!
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by DOTSmusic »

ModusOp wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 8:17 am
DOTSmusic wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:37 amSo what now? :bang:
Have you tried the midi loopback technique yet? It seems like a legit workaround and you only sacrifice one track. I’m just saying, if you like everything else about the machine, and not having song mode is turning out to be the deal breaker, it’s worth a shot!
I haven't gotten around to trying that yet. I definitely won't make my final decision until I try it.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by Nelson Baboon »

stickman wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:40 am
commoner wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:34 pm
Nelson Baboon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:33 pm i'm curious. how do people know that it would be easy to implement?
The synth community is comprised of mostly embedded-software engineers.
:D also people who design products and do marketing strategy and know best

I guess it's easy because it's there on other synths (e.g. A4) with pretty much an identical interface. It's been built already.
if that is really true (seems to me that there are lots of assumptions here) then I guess the fundamental issue comes down to Elektron having everything to gain by putting in code that works for other instruments, because it's easy and it will not complicate the existing functionality and it will please users who want this new functionality. Why wouldn't they do it? I just suspect that it isn't that simple. And I have never been an Elektron fanboy at all. I just see people making assumptions, and making claims, without really (to my mind) backing it up. And ultimately it comes down to them releasing a device that seems to be a lot of fun and that sounds good, and certainly can join the many synths in the world without 'song mode'. As for the ones that do have it - buy one of them.

But I mean, who knows. Maybe they plan to put it in a future update. Maybe they don't. I don't think that Elektron is unique in not divulging their future plans. Back when they were smaller, it used to be possible to communicate with people there about various limitations with their instruments. I remember that i had some communications about the sequencer limitations of the monomachine (all tracks needing to be the same length) and was told that it was technically impossible to do it in that machine. Has anyone tried to communicate with Elektron about their concerns?

some of the claims in this thread are just silly - like people not wanting song mode, etc. I mean, i've never read anyone anywhere saying that the addition of a song mode feature is detrimental to the rest of the instrument. I just suspect that i is more complicated than people are making it out to be. Of course, i could be wrong. it's not like I have insider info....but this whole argument just seems silly to me.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by DOTSmusic »

Nelson Baboon wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:01 am
some of the claims in this thread are just silly - like people not wanting song mode, etc.
Not in this thread, but when searching for info about a hardware solution for proper arrangements on syntakt, I have stumbled across a few comments (I think they were posted on the Elektronauts forum) where people have explicitly stated that they don't want a song mode. :doh: "People are strange."
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by albiedamned »

Without access to the code, no one can say for certain how easy or hard it is. But as a software engineer with 30 years experience, I can make a very educated guess that it would be almost trivial to implement. It already has pattern chaining. All they have to do is add code to save the chain as part of the project structure, and then to load the chain when loading the project.
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by Nelson Baboon »

albiedamned wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:27 am Without access to the code, no one can say for certain how easy or hard it is. But as a software engineer with 30 years experience, I can make a very educated guess that it would be almost trivial to implement. It already has pattern chaining. All they have to do is add code to save the chain as part of the project structure, and then to load the chain when loading the project.
part of what to me seems like oversimplification is that, if it is indeed simple to do what you suggest, that they might not want to implement the simplest version of song mode because that might generate even more complaints from people who used it, wanting additional features and subtlety to the implemention, talking about how easy it is to implement that, and trashing Elektron for disrespecting their users, etc. Seems like maybe they consider it to be a 'no win'....then again, i think that the operative word in your post is "guess". and i obviously am guessing also.

I mean, don't buy the damn thing. It really is common knowledge at this point that you should buy something based on its current feature set. It seems like it would make sense to join any official request list to Elektron, etc, but i just don't get the attitude that people have here. On the one hand, the presupposition seems to be: Elektron makes great stuff, but they disrespect their users. I just don't think it's that simple.

Has anyone tried to get an answer from Elektron?
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by stickman »

Nelson Baboon wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:01 am
stickman wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 7:40 am
commoner wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:34 pm
Nelson Baboon wrote: Fri May 13, 2022 1:33 pm i'm curious. how do people know that it would be easy to implement?
The synth community is comprised of mostly embedded-software engineers.
:D also people who design products and do marketing strategy and know best

I guess it's easy because it's there on other synths (e.g. A4) with pretty much an identical interface. It's been built already.
if that is really true (seems to me that there are lots of assumptions here) then I guess the fundamental issue comes down to Elektron having everything to gain by putting in code that works for other instruments, because it's easy and it will not complicate the existing functionality and it will please users who want this new functionality. Why wouldn't they do it? I just suspect that it isn't that simple. And I have never been an Elektron fanboy at all. I just see people making assumptions, and making claims, without really (to my mind) backing it up. And ultimately it comes down to them releasing a device that seems to be a lot of fun and that sounds good, and certainly can join the many synths in the world without 'song mode'. As for the ones that do have it - buy one of them.

But I mean, who knows. Maybe they plan to put it in a future update. Maybe they don't. I don't think that Elektron is unique in not divulging their future plans. Back when they were smaller, it used to be possible to communicate with people there about various limitations with their instruments. I remember that i had some communications about the sequencer limitations of the monomachine (all tracks needing to be the same length) and was told that it was technically impossible to do it in that machine. Has anyone tried to communicate with Elektron about their concerns?

some of the claims in this thread are just silly - like people not wanting song mode, etc. I mean, i've never read anyone anywhere saying that the addition of a song mode feature is detrimental to the rest of the instrument. I just suspect that i is more complicated than people are making it out to be. Of course, i could be wrong. it's not like I have insider info....but this whole argument just seems silly to me.
I don't really guess why they don't because it doesn't matter.

Genuinely the A4 has the same physical interface, less screen real estate, and a song mode.

The song mode isn't particularly great. I don't know why people make a song and dance about it!
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by stickman »

Nelson Baboon wrote: Sat May 14, 2022 9:37 am They might not want to implement the simplest version of song mode because that might generate even more complaints from people who used it, wanting additional features and subtlety to the implemention, talking about how easy it is to implement that, and trashing Elektron for disrespecting their users, etc.
This sounds possible. Again the existing song mode on dark trinity isn't particularly great.

Paradigms have shifted over the years (such as clips, grid, scenes etc.), there are better tools for songs and I don't think we're missing anything past storing a pattern chain with a project.

I think the more novel feature would be the elektron devices being able to sequence themselves via midi. This would allow cross channel features, polyphony, song mode (using PCs) but with trig conditions, transpositions, all sorts.. much more "elektron esque".
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by ModusOp »

Yo, are there no Slide Trigs on this thing? I thought those were a part of all Elektron sequencers now, but I don’t see them in the manual. :hmm:

Also, a shame the noise on the analog tracks isn’t analog! Grr. I feel like that would have added a bit more character to the sound. Being able to sweep between different colors of noise would have been nice too.

Oh well. Having fun with it so far regardless!
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Re: Elektron Syntakt

Post by 22tape »

I agree song mode will never happen. I mean, they're moving in the opposite direction by not even allowing pattern chains to be saved, which is not helpful even to those who don't need song mode.
wrote:i haven't seen any complaints about adding it. just comments that it isn't important to people
wrote:No one is “arguing against adding song mode”. Why would anyone argue against a new feature being added.
Here are some complaints against and/or complete dismissals of song mode's usefulness. These were taken from a couple of Digitakt threads from MW and Elektronauts, and this thread--

"I disagree that Elektron should add a song mode to the Digitakt. It is not about pleasing everybody. It is about where the unit was designed for and that is as far I know for live performance as I mentioned above and not for creating entire songs within the unit.

"The Digitakt itself does not need a song mode. Many users might want it to have a song mode but it doesn’t need one, it works fine as it is."

"I would bet my house on the Digitakt not getting a song mode. Two reasons-- It doesn’t need it. I doubt there’s much room left in it for more updates."

"I really personally don't get the song mode thing. Just record it into a daw and arrange it there, or use an external device to trigger pattern changes."

'Yeah I don't get the fuss about song mode.. these are performance instruments and it's always easy to pattern chain.'

"If you think the lack of song mode is a deal breaker then you might be missing out. This thing is an instrument, not a studio center."

"Dag, where were you (and your voice of reason) when I returned that Warwick 5 string bass because it had no song mode?"

"I have the Digitakt. And the box is built without a song mode. And also intended to not have one. Elektron made this choice and it is very understandable."

"damn. i'm going to sell all of my gear in the price range and above that doesn't have a song mode. Good bye violin. Good bye modular."

"When are they going to add singalong mode? Every karaoke machine out there has it!"

"You think that’s bad, I bought a DFAM. It doesn’t even have patch memory!"

And there are many more comments like this all over the interwebz.
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