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old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:45 pm

Cool, I'll look forward to hearing how you like your drums when you get them and what music you do with them! :party:
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:50 pm

well, it's interesting. i actually don't much get into the music of most of the videos i've heard with handpans - some of them are fabulous players (really want to develop that level of technique, hand independence, etc) but i think that it is too easy for people to play pretty music with instruments that can sound pretty so easily. I love the meditative aspect of the sound and the playing, but for me, the essence of meditative percussion is Muslimgauze, perhaps not the ideal for most.

I am perhaps making a fundamental error in presupposing that if i enjoy playing these so much, i can adapt them to my musical notions.

edit: same issue with the kalimba/mbira. i have some nice ones, but i find them a little easier to deal with in my little studio. For one thing the pickups on them work perfectly, and they aren't as loud, so playing into loopers etc don't seem to tax my tiny baboon brain as much as the larger tongue drums/pans. (meaning that the 'issue' of adapting to my music seems a little less fraught with peril)


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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:17 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 8:00 pm
oh, and John - it's so nice to see you back here!
Thanks for the warm welcome, it's good to reconnect with you my friend! :hug:
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by bphenix » Sun Nov 07, 2021 10:39 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:50 pm
well, it's interesting. i actually don't much get into the music of most of the videos i've heard with handpans - some of them are fabulous players (really want to develop that level of technique, hand independence, etc) but i think that it is too easy for people to play pretty music with instruments that can sound pretty so easily. I love the meditative aspect of the sound and the playing, but for me, the essence of meditative percussion is Muslimgauze, perhaps not the ideal for most.

I am perhaps making a fundamental error in presupposing that if i enjoy playing these so much, i can adapt them to my musical notions.
This resonates with me quite a lot (Including the Musilmguaze reference).

I am finding that I am enjoying more and more having separate and only loose related musical instruments playing interests. Making sounds at the moment falls largely into either learning and exploring, meditative, and less often trying to organize everything into a recording. I tried to bring all instruments into the studio but now I spread them out in the house and interact with them at different times, different settings, and with different expectations. The result is that I am learning more and playing more often. At the same time, while I may not use some of these instruments in the studio (at least not yet), I do find learning these new instruments inspiring and thought provoking in ways that carry over, often in indirect ways.

That is a long way of say, I think it is useful, at least for me, to have meditative instruments (and as you say, meditative will vary based on the person) and I don’t feel it is necessary and perhaps even counterproductive to try and force them into other purposes.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Sun Nov 07, 2021 11:51 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 7:50 pm
i think that it is too easy for people to play pretty music with instruments that can sound pretty so easily.
I call them "windchime instruments" because most are tuned to a specific scale and often to mainly just root, third, fifth, and octaves of those, so you really don't need much more skill and musicality than a moderately gentle breeze to play lovely meandering tunes on them! :hihi: Still it can be quick satisfying fun, like "musical fast food"?
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Hyberus » Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:47 am

Cheers, guys. I read through this thread and ended up buying myself a cheap tongue drum. I hope you're happy.
Random is the new maRnod

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:01 am

this is the scale i ordered for my Pulsar...the 'Triple' means that there are 3 large center tongues.

A2 Custom 15

Scale: A2-Bb2-C3-D3-Eb3-Gb3-G3-Bb3-C4-D4-Eb4-G4-Bb4-Db5-E5
Layout: Triple
Handedness: Right-handed
Pitch: 440 Hz

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:02 am

Hyberus wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:47 am
Cheers, guys. I read through this thread and ended up buying myself a cheap tongue drum. I hope you're happy.
which one did you get?

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Hyberus » Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:08 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 9:02 am
Hyberus wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:47 am
Cheers, guys. I read through this thread and ended up buying myself a cheap tongue drum. I hope you're happy.
which one did you get?
A Banggood 12" C major hand drum, with mallets. £28, so probably not the best thing in the world, but good enough to tell me whether I'm any good at playing it, in which case I'll think about a better one.
Random is the new maRnod

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:15 pm

Hyberus wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 7:47 am
Cheers, guys. I read through this thread and ended up buying myself a cheap tongue drum. I hope you're happy.
:party: :goo: :sb: :hihi: :tu: :smash:
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:33 pm

my favorite handpan video. Watch it through. it gets better and better. She is phenomenal, though not technically...


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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:19 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 6:33 pm
my favorite handpan video. Watch it through. it gets better and better. She is phenomenal, though not technically...

Thanks for sharing, she's great!
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:34 am

sigh. in all my years, i have never really used a microphone much, and when i did i wasn't worried about timing and didn't use a metronome, etc....

so, this is probably pathetically beginner shit.

so, how the bloody hell do i use a metronome (using Reaper) and not have the sound of the metronome get recorded through the microphone? Am I simply going to have to use headphones when i record these damn drums? i know very little about microphones, but i thought that this mic (at 4050) was supposed to (what's the term) be very directional? (probably wrong lingo there). i really hate using headphones.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:11 am

I can relate, I rarely use headphones! (unless I'm recording a drum set)

The AT 4050 can be set to one of three polar pickup patterns, Cardioid, Omnidirectional, and Figure-8. I would think Cardioid or Figure-8 would work best?
4SjF_NOJ1lMdplkhAZ-7HhmvCMbAbFPJvl07HCox-PE.png
You can read this short page for more details: https://www.lewitt-audio.com/blog/polar-patterns

What you will want to try is pointing the most sensitive area of the mic's pickup pattern towards the drum and the least sensitive towards the speaker, and only use one speaker as running two will make it harder to isolate the click. Also a judiciously placed "gobo" between the speaker and mic can also help to reduce the amount of click getting into the mic while still allowing you to hear the click. A gobo is a pro audio term that refers to a freestanding wall or box that is full of sound absorption material that can be placed anywhere it's needed to block direct sounds or placed in front of hard surfaces to help prevent reflections. Alternates to a gobo you might have around a home are things like a couch, easy chair, or bed mattress etc.

Typical studio gobo
primacoustic-go-trap-gray_12740_1.jpg

Even a small vocal isolator might be useful instead of something larger?
VocalIsolator.jpg

So here is a quick diagram of a setup that might work with a cardioid pattern:
RecordingSuggestion_SpeakerClick_Cardioid.jpg

And similar with a figure-8 pattern:
RecordingSuggestion_SpeakerClick_Figure8.jpg
Also a gobo behind you might be helpful if there are hard walls or windows that might reflect the click back into the mic?



OK, all that said . . .I think there are a lot of silent visual "click track/metronome" devices, apps, and plugins that you might want to look into? I haven't tried any myself.

It looks like Reaper has something you can try that is built in?
Visual Click & Big Clock in REAPER


I've been seeing these silent watch things advertised lately but I don't know if they can be sync'd to a DAW or not:
https://www.soundbrenner.com/
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:56 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:04 am
sounds like using headphones is the way to go.
:lol:
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by mmp » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:58 am

Figure 8 usually has the best rejection node in my experience. But, closed headphones are also a good bet.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:25 pm

there are some current controversies in this little world, some bigger, some smaller.

PanArt is apparently suing companies for making handpans, claiming that it is some kind of infringement of copyright, even though they are no longer making their hangdrum. I think that the company that they started out by suing is Ayasa (sp?). I haven't read any defense of this, though i'd love to hear it.

I was researching guda drums, and found that there are multiple sites with very similar names. I emailed a question about this to zen percussion (the maker of these) and got what I thought was a kind of an evasive answer - that the 2 sites i mentioned were different "business models". I researched further and found out that these originally were made in collaboration with Dimitrii Gubarev, but that they parted ways acrimoniously a few years ago. I contacted Dmitrii and besides being a very nice guy, explained that they still sell his stuff but without his permission. My impressions of him, plus my impressions of Zen Percussion led me to buy directly from him. I am very pleased with my purchase.

then there is rav. I discovered this dispute when encountering reports in facebook groups of bad customer service now from Rav, the most notable example being someone who received one with a 'dead' tongue, and that they did not respond in a satisfactory way (wanting him to pay for return shipping) despite video examples showing the issue, and other examples of deteriorating service. (also some reports of deteriorating quality).
finally they responded on the facebook group saying that they were going to correct their service (seemed a little weird - like an admission that it was bad) and then seemed to blame a former employee (whom they named) for some other defective Rav Vast that was received. This response seemed pretty much universally condemned, since it appeared (to me also) as deflecting responsibility since even if it were true, it was Rav who had screwed up. But the person was the owner of Quint Art, who now is a competitor (and seems to get unanimous rave reviews from people. I have one on order). Apparently Rav was sold a few years ago and the new owners wound up firing some of the old employees - in this case, the person started his own company. He again is a very nice fellow, and I chose to do business with him.

In any case, I have been finding this all rather interesting, starting out with the naive assumption that everything was all rosy in this small community. I hope that I haven't erred in whom I am supporting here.

in any case, once i have received all of the items in this spree (of selling and buying up these drums in their full range, meaning tongue drums, tongue pans, hand pans, i will post short reviews. I am really enjoying just playing these. simply playing and not worrying about recording, etc, is something that i haven't done in quite some time, and i think that it has been lacking in my musical life.

I'd be interested to hear if I am wrong about any of the above.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by chaosium » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:12 pm

Are there any good threads that cover construction for larger DIY drums? Beyond propane tank drum size to something more substantial in size for an installation in a public park or otherwise?

Sort of a pie in the sky idea to get a grant for a park nearby me in a way that's liability-safe and cost effective.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:48 pm

It seems like every time I look at hand pans / tongue drumes there are several more makes that I wasn't aware of! I just saw the KAA Tone drums for the first time and they look and sound a little like a "Klingon" version of a tongue drum? Heavier and klangier that many other's. The kind of intrigue me although they seem to be a very small operation and they don't have an easy way to order that I've seen. (and they may even be out of business?)


I look forward to hearing or at least hearing about the drums you are getting, Nelson!
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:50 pm

chaosium wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:12 pm
Are there any good threads that cover construction for larger DIY drums? Beyond propane tank drum size to something more substantial in size for an installation in a public park or otherwise?

Sort of a pie in the sky idea to get a grant for a park nearby me in a way that's liability-safe and cost effective.
Sounds like a great idea! :hyper: I don't know of any threads on construction of large tongue drums but you might try writing to some of the tongue drum companies to see what they think about the feasibility?
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by chaosium » Sat Nov 20, 2021 9:20 pm

JohnLRice wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:50 pm
chaosium wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:12 pm
Are there any good threads that cover construction for larger DIY drums? Beyond propane tank drum size to something more substantial in size for an installation in a public park or otherwise?

Sort of a pie in the sky idea to get a grant for a park nearby me in a way that's liability-safe and cost effective.
Sounds like a great idea! :hyper: I don't know of any threads on construction of large tongue drums but you might try writing to some of the tongue drum companies to see what they think about the feasibility?
Hrm, not sure some of them would be too keen on if my inspiration was another individual who adapted industrial tanks to parks. I suppose i could ask, as I’m not trying to build a business out of it?

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by clusterchord » Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:16 pm

nice and very timely thread for me :)

ive been looking into Rav and Eox for last cpl of months. after playing a Meinl tongue drum in the store last winter, it hit me how this might be for me. really loved it. i grew up playing piano, and this whole idea of modes that have less than 8 diatonic pitches (hexa, penta) or are spread across two octaves, is very interesting for performance, as well as compositionally.


still haven't bought anything yet. i already constructed an EOX scale with balance btwn simplicity/performance and having enough flexibility for more complex stuff. my impression is that having too many tongues and nearing a chromatic scale sort of defeats the purpose, and takes away from the idiomatic tonguge drum playing, and also i noticed that drums with less tounges sometimes sound better i.e. have healthier decay. has anyone else noticed that ?

anyways, i am little hesitant to order EOX as its outside of european union, and im especially afraid of receiving a drum with dead tongues. return or refund is complicated as you have already payed VAT when importing into europe.

situation with Rav is much better as Thomann is their re-seller, and they offer 3yr garantie, and are much quicker on exchange if something is not right. either refund or another unit, or buying something completely different (they have eurorack division now hehe). i have narrowed it down to the Kurd scale.

as for classic tongue drum, without additional cuts and overtones, i like the sound of basic Kosmodrum. also in Russia, so import is due. they mention user scales but don't think they're as flexible as eox in that regard. anyone tried these ?


as for the mics, i never recorded a tongue drum per se but record nylon guitars, violin, kalimbas, small percussion etc,, main factor is what room you are planning to record in. if it has:

1. desirable characteristics (large, with lot of diffusion) -> spaced omni sdc pair at 1m+
2. medium sized studio with solid absorption and difussion -> xy cardioid sdc pair at 20-40cm or m-s pair
3. a naked room and/or smaller one a.k.a. a disaster - temporary gobos and a hypercardioid pair at 20-40cm

for 3. you could go with solutions that mount on the instrument itself, piezos, microcondensers etc. but these always have unnatural and artifical sound. ideally, you want to pickup the instrument the way you hear it, or little closer/further than that depending on quality of the space, not record it as if your ear is on the drum. these mounting microphones are used only as a compromise in challenging live enviroments, for example violin or double bass in a loud electric band gig. but in acoustic ensembles, orchestras - you wont see a piezo or anything resembling a lavalier ever.


atm i use a pair of cardioid schoeps (mk4) in x-y. a mono omni mk2 , and ribbon aea r84 when i want little less of that condenser zing and detail for more organic mids. its a beautiful sound if arr is sparse and its to be solo. i plan to get another to be able properly do blumlein. think for less than ideal spaces a Beyerdynamic M160 would also be fantastic, as its a rare ribbon thats not fig8 but hypercardioid.


for metronome: Nelson, there is no mic in the world that can avoid picking it up if it plays on monitors, you can only go with closed type headphones (dt770, akg k555 etc) or a visual metronome. no other way.
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Pugilistas » Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:57 am

Got another hang drum maker, who's local to Central Texas. Nice guy, started out making steel pan drums, then moved to hang drums. Visited his shop pre2020, was fun, though the finer points of manufacture were probably lost on me. High dollar to me, but that's the deal with these handmade things.
https://pansnapmusic.com/


Got to say that the PanArt makers seem to have their heads where the sun don't shine. Very snooty, weirdly elitist, and holier than thou. I have played a first generation PanArt drum extensively, and it's very nice...but it's not so nice that I'd put up with price and attitude. They've moved on now themselves, but are taking advantage of some European artistic copyright rules to lord it over others. Sorta like if only Leo Fender himself could make Strats or Teles. By hand.

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