Polyend Tracker

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forestcaver
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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by forestcaver » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:43 am

acidbob wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:33 am

Quite frankly, maybe it's time for a change on their side, a new systematic approach, people will be happy if one problem is solved at a time. No one is asking that everything is perfect at next update. Just the fact that work is being done, and they are doing their best gives confidence to the customers.
One bug fix at a time and make that work and have it tested by beta testers is the way to go.
In this case they are saying that one of the advertised features is not working properly so they are disabling it. Unfortunately, I’m not sure that this gives me confidence in how they will choose to resolve the other bugs.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by Devilwidget » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:56 am

Polyend have averaged 2 updates a month since the tracker was released. The have a github set up for registering faults and feedback. That is quite literally a systematic approach. That is quite literally 'work being done'. They are fixing a handful of bugs at a time and constantly improving the device. I only got the tracker after the last update, but it is at present extremely stable, and feature rich. I am pretty happy with Polyend's approach at this point, especially since they make a point of continuing to work on their devices.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by 22tape » Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:43 am

It'd be nice if gear (in general) weren't released with so many bugs to begin with. It's strange that we've come to a place where releasing buggy gear has become so common that users brag about how badass their bug-tracking github is.


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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by Devilwidget » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:03 am

22tape wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:43 am
It'd be nice if gear (in general) weren't released with so many bugs to begin with. It's strange that we've come to a place where releasing buggy gear has become so common that users brag about how badass their bug-tracking github is.
You seem to be missing the point. No on is 'bragging' about the need to bug fix. But outright lying about small companies making interesting products and running into some problems along the way is hugely unhelpful. Regardless of any issues with the units, to declare, repeatedly, that Polyend is not engaging with their user base, or not committing to incremental updates of their gear, is simply untrue, and those lies should be called out.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by forestcaver » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:06 am

22tape wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 10:43 am
It'd be nice if gear (in general) weren't released with so many bugs to begin with. It's strange that we've come to a place where releasing buggy gear has become so common that users brag about how badass their bug-tracking github is.
Yeah - this is very sad and true.
Devilwidget wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:56 am
The have a github set up for registering faults and feedback. <snip> That is quite literally 'work being done'. They are fixing a handful of bugs at a time.
You’re absolutely correct, I cant deny that they have logged a lot of open bugs on github and I have reviewed their milestones and past releases as to how many are fixed. Some releases have had more than a handful of fixes though, so I think you are being a bit harsh

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by 22tape » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:12 am

My point is that it'd be nice if gear wasn't released with so many bugs :omg:


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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by forestcaver » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:23 am

I’ve decided to sell my tracker. It’s too buggy for me and still doesnt do what was advertised and what I bought it for. It could be amazing and that is what is upsetting. I’ve never given up on a piece of gear before so this is a first.... apologies to all those who love it as it is and who are happy with it and are getting frustrated by anyone who criticises it who cant work around its crashes, midi sync, export and other bugs. I understand - so apologies from me. Peace, love, etc

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by lisa » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:04 pm

I must say that I understand those that feel animosity towards Polyend based on the bug reports in this thread. Sometimes folks get hung up on minor bugs, like when I had an Alesis Andromeda for a while and other Andromeda owners was very upset about bugs that I didn't even notice. But, if I bought a piece of gear that kept crashing or had functions that didn't work at all I'd be furious.
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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by unexpectedbowtie » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:01 pm

I said this earlier, and I appreciate forestcaver's frustrations, but I'm not sure they reflect the current reality - at least not in terms of frequent crashes or issues with exports. If folks read back, I have been vocally critical of Polyend both here and on GitHub, but I've never experienced a single crash, and the export issues have been almost completely addressed, so to keep bringing that up as a contemporary problem without expanding doesn't quite seem fair.

Calling out Polyend for not delivering what they advertised is quite right, and throughout this thread I argued for doing just that - but it's also important to recognise the progress that's been made, and the good faith efforts which have led to that - otherwise it becomes an endless barrage of criticism with no real possibility of a positive outcome. FWIW, I do so while continuing to comment and contribute to bug reports, so this isn't some kind of apologism.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by 22tape » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:21 pm

@unexpectedbowtie @lisa

Fair points!


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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by Roy72 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:00 pm

It reminds me of some work my old game theory lecturer did on the trade off between early release and capturing a market versus waiting longer and risk losing customers due to an incomplete product:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 6824A677F7

I think I may have said this before, but these issues are more pressing for small organisations doing innovative products, that need cash flow to survive and to some extent are outsourcing beta testing to early adopters. So to me, buggy releases are a part of enabling us to have new and interesting bits of gear. I'm not saying that we should accept stuff that doesn't work, but the demand for perfection on first release would have an impact on what gets to market. An important aspect of this is trust in the producer to work on and improve the product over time.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by 22tape » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:19 pm

Roy72 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:00 pm
It reminds me of some work my old game theory lecturer did on the trade off between early release and capturing a market versus waiting longer and risk losing customers due to an incomplete product:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 6824A677F7

I think I may have said this before, but these issues are more pressing for small organisations doing innovative products, that need cash flow to survive and to some extent are outsourcing beta testing to early adopters. So to me, buggy releases are a part of enabling us to have new and interesting bits of gear. I'm not saying that we should accept stuff that doesn't work, but the demand for perfection on first release would have an impact on what gets to market. An important aspect of this is trust in the producer to work on and improve the product over time.
Good stuff.

Ultimately, if buggy releases by boutique companies allow us to have new and interesting gear, they should probs be more transparent at the point of sale, as far as where the product is in its development cycle. Like, the product roadmap should be front and center on the product page, like a crowdsourcing project/product. If you're charging someone the full retail price for a commercial product when it's full of bugs or major functionality that isn't implemented yet, you should let them know what they're getting into. Just be up front and honest. I think people respond better that way. If not, you risk pissing people off, and your reputation might take a hit, and you'll feel the need to police gear forums for damage control.


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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by smtif » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:19 pm

forestcaver wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:36 am
Update - just been banned from their fb group for the above comment. Be careful not to post any criticism (or compliments) about the tracker or polyend will insult you and ban you. Just be aware that this is the nature of the company.

Also, rather sinisterly (as I have my fb security locked down as tight as possible) the polyend dev/employee who was insulting me just sent me a friend request!!!! Be very careful with them....
It seems they behaved badly here, but these dark warnings about being "careful" and "sinister" actions are ridiculously dramatic. What do you imagine are they're going to do, have you killed? The friend request was probably just someone wanting to to PM you to apologize. Whatever the purpose, would this be less "sinister" if your FB page was less private? How?

By the way, you're warning people against posting "compliments" on their page. Are you saying that's what your comment was, or was it meant in the way it was taken? Just curious.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by Roy72 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:27 pm

22tape wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:19 pm
Roy72 wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:00 pm
It reminds me of some work my old game theory lecturer did on the trade off between early release and capturing a market versus waiting longer and risk losing customers due to an incomplete product:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals ... 6824A677F7

I think I may have said this before, but these issues are more pressing for small organisations doing innovative products, that need cash flow to survive and to some extent are outsourcing beta testing to early adopters. So to me, buggy releases are a part of enabling us to have new and interesting bits of gear. I'm not saying that we should accept stuff that doesn't work, but the demand for perfection on first release would have an impact on what gets to market. An important aspect of this is trust in the producer to work on and improve the product over time.
Good stuff.

Ultimately, if buggy releases by boutique companies allow us to have new and interesting gear, they should probs be more transparent at the point of sale, as far as where the product is in its development cycle. Like, the product roadmap should be front and center on the product page, like a crowdsourcing project/product. If you're charging someone the full retail price for a commercial product when it's full of bugs or major functionality that isn't implemented yet, you should let them know what they're getting into. Just be up front and honest. I think people respond better that way. If not, you risk pissing people off, and your reputation might take a hit, and you'll feel the need to police gear forums for damage control.
I agree with that too.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by forestcaver » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:42 am

smtif wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:19 pm
forestcaver wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:36 am
Update - just been banned from their fb group for the above comment. Be careful not to post any criticism (or compliments) about the tracker or polyend will insult you and ban you. Just be aware that this is the nature of the company.

Also, rather sinisterly (as I have my fb security locked down as tight as possible) the polyend dev/employee who was insulting me just sent me a friend request!!!! Be very careful with them....
It seems they behaved badly here, but these dark warnings about being "careful" and "sinister" actions are ridiculously dramatic. What do you imagine are they're going to do, have you killed? The friend request was probably just someone wanting to to PM you to apologize. Whatever the purpose, would this be less "sinister" if your FB page was less private? How?

By the way, you're warning people against posting "compliments" on their page. Are you saying that's what your comment was, or was it meant in the way it was taken? Just curious.
First post on MW and just joined today? Hmm.... congratulations...

They could have pm’d me anyway to apologise without a friend request. A friend request is most likely in order to see your profile for private information. I cant imagine wanting to be somebody’s friend who I dont know... that’s just odd! Why would a company want to see your private information? I cant think of an innocent reason....
Last edited by forestcaver on Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by forestcaver » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:47 am

22tape wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:19 pm

Ultimately, if buggy releases by boutique companies allow us to have new and interesting gear, they should probs be more transparent at the point of sale, as far as where the product is in its development cycle. Like, the product roadmap should be front and center on the product page, like a crowdsourcing project/product. If you're charging someone the full retail price for a commercial product when it's full of bugs or major functionality that isn't implemented yet, you should let them know what they're getting into. Just be up front and honest. I think people respond better that way. If not, you risk pissing people off, and your reputation might take a hit, and you'll feel the need to police gear forums for damage control.
Absolutely! If this had happened and I had still chosen to buy, I’d have absolutely no issues.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by Kattefjaes » Sun Apr 18, 2021 4:48 am

forestcaver wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:23 am
I’ve decided to sell my tracker. It’s too buggy for me and still doesnt do what was advertised and what I bought it for. It could be amazing and that is what is upsetting. I’ve never given up on a piece of gear before so this is a first.... apologies to all those who love it as it is and who are happy with it and are getting frustrated by anyone who criticises it who cant work around its crashes, midi sync, export and other bugs. I understand - so apologies from me. Peace, love, etc
Yep, pretty much this. I need to get off my arse, swap a smaller flash card (than the fancy Sandisk Ultra 200GB one in there right now) and take some pictures, and sell it to someone who'll enjoy it more. There are a few more days left on this month's fee free listing offer on ebay, too.

The software isn't great, a bunch of things don't work as advertised, sometimes suffering some pretty embarrassing regressions that could have been revealed with even the most basic of systematic testing. Worse, however is that there are issues with the hardware that can never be fixed with a patch. Selling it while it's pristine and everything is still working feels a lot more honest than trying to move a known lemon if the encoder starts to fail.

The noise on the outputs while running is in line with that in the official tutorial videos so I won't feel like I'm concealing too much, though Jesus, I wouldn't want to connect it through a desk to a PA. If the unit shut down/rebooted in use (which has happened occasionally on some fireware versions) and the muting relay kicked across, the resulting noise out of the outputs is not pleasant thing. It's orders of magnitude louder than the noise from the unit when it's not muted. A powered-down unit making that much noise makes me uncomfortable.

I still say that the industrial design is a little magic- the control layout, the colour coded and tactile squashy buttons etc. are a joy. This one had so much potential. I'm sad it's not my go-to throw in a backpack social-media-free fun box. There's a lesson there about not being an early adopter and doing your research about the specific unit as well as the manufacturer's previous projects- that one's my responsibility for not being more sceptical.

I'll let other people be early adopters of M8 and Nerdseq Portable. I'd be amazed if the latter wasn't completely solid, given its pedigree, mind you.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by Beewo » Sun Apr 18, 2021 1:53 pm

forestcaver wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:36 am
I just got attacked by polyend on their fb psge - I posted a reply
“ Excellent news ! Great work! Glad to see the bugs are finally getting resolved!”

and had this reponse from polyend -

“ what are you trying to accomplish with your petty passive aggression?” in direct reply.
Be really careful - they seem to be really quite unpleasant and rude in their attitude to customers.

The posts are currently still up in their fb group - I wonder if they’ll delete them...
Yeah from what I have heard over the years this is pretty on brand for Polyend.. they have always been bad at taking criticism it seems, and even when they engaged with trolls and were seemingly in the “right” they alway came across looking kinda bad/petty. But they are super nice to Artist/YouTubers showing off there products it seems, I dunno it just seems like they have a really hard time talking criticism. Honestly I’ve avoided there products more recently based on this, it seems like a flaw that is potentially holding them back. They do have brilliant ideas for products though, I just don’t think any of them are quite executed to my taste. I’d probably be swallowing my words and buying polyend tracker if it weren’t for M8 tracker, really seems like a work of genius to me, the fact it is made by a single musician over many years is awesome. The type of thing that probably only happens a few times a generation.. like a Don Buchla for trackers.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by kxx303 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:28 pm

My first Tracker’s jog wheel stopped working in two or three days. Changed it for a new one in store. But ended up selling it. Tracker is supercool, but I refuse to live in constant fear of breaking the jog wheel by touching it.

Bugs are ok, but I’ve had a Tempest for many years and have gone through all that “waiting for updates” drama (it became a gorgeous machine after all btw). Dont want to force myself to use unfinished instrument again.

And that awful channel overdrive sound (not “drive” effect but when channel goes red in the mixer) is something I can not live with.
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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by The Junglechrist » Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:42 am

I see mostly people being not happy here but I still am despite some bugs! Here is a new video from me about sampling Eurorack stuff into the Tracker (with some bugs inside hahaha) for those who might be interested ;-)


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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by Kattefjaes » Mon Apr 19, 2021 5:37 pm

forestcaver wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:14 pm
Just seen an update from polyend in the fb group on the bug fixing for 1.4, which I guess gives an insight into how they are planning on resolving outstanding bugs - in reply to someone complaining about a feature being buggy:

“ File Transfer Mode sadly isn't super-reliable. We will be disabling it in Tracker 1.4 firmware.”

I just fear that this is how the midi, export and rendering bugs will be fixed as well....
I am not sure how long ago it was that I logged a crash repro for that, complete with test file set, but I think it was during 1.2.x sometime? That's something of a plot twist, and not one I foresaw. If they're going to disable features due to being less than "super-reliable", we'll be left with a slightly awkward and expensive NES emulator :hihi:

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by Tofupancho » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:32 pm

I agree that this has gotten ridiculous. This isn’t how people talk to other people. It’s how you vent, which is understandable, or how you make someone sound like Dick Dastardly to get a free replacement cell phone. If you buy a brand new non-iterative gadget that relies heavily on software in the first year, from a company with 5 employees or 500,000, you’re an early adopter and that thing has bugs. Polyend has taken feedback and criticism well, been responsive in releasing updates targeting the biggest issues and new features, and done so very transparently with a public issue tracker and access to beta firmware releases on GitHub. Their small team has not yet managed to squash every bug. That’s hardly tiptoeing away with dollar sign canvas bags slung over their backs. That’s operating in good faith.

They definitely don’t want a product they’ve put so much into to be in this limbo state where it works well in some set ups but not others. The way some businesses placate people who treat their employees poorly, I can see where the idea forms that this might further motivate them. But that doesn’t make it “rude” for others to eventually mute stuff like that. Taking the 1/8th of a second to remember that you’re interacting with not just another person, but a fellow music geek, is it’s own reward.

I use mine as a standalone idea/inspiration/travel box and it’s been rock solid in that application since launch. It was sitting next to me on the couch today when I pulled up this thread. The added features are great and I appreciate all the work they’ve put in. For applications outside of this, it makes sense to read through the known issues on their GitHub before buying. If it’s not a good fit, return it. Maybe check back down the road or fall in love with some other device that suits your needs. If it glows red at night, speaks in backwards Aramaic, squats over the table at breakfast and takes a big dump in your cereal bowl, some frustration and venting makes sense. Ultimately, refer to the bit about returning it.

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by ignatius » Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:05 pm

if you have a polyend tracker the recent bogdan version and a project he's shared includes some of the samples from one of my sample libraries.

have at it!



link to full library.

https://buriedintime.bandcamp.com/releases

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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by 22tape » Wed Apr 21, 2021 6:18 pm

Nice one, congrats!


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Re: Polyend Tracker

Post by steveoath » Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:43 am

They should make skins available to stick onto the boring ole standard issue one.

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