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old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:56 am

OK, I knew I would be in trouble if I participated in this thread! :roll: :doh: :hihi: I ordered another drum today . . . this time a Yudin Workshop Pulsar. :hyper: I considered getting something that sounds different from the two drums I already have but I mainly wanted a drum that would fill in the few notes I don't have covered with my EOX and Rav Vast. (the YW Pulsar sounding very similar to the EOX as far as I can tell) So once I receive the Pulsar I'll have the following three drum setup:

Rav Vast (B Onoleo):
Rav Vast B Onoleo.png
https://ravvast.com/virtualplayer/?drum=8

EOX Drum (JLR custom):
EOX Drum Custom.png
https://eoxdrum.com/eox-virtual-player/ ... 4-A4-C5-D5

YW Pulsar (Bb Pendragon 10):
YW Pulsar Bb Pendragon 10.png
https://www.yudinworkshop.com/?layout=T ... Bb4-C5-Db5

Notes covered by each drum ignoring octaves:
A : EOX
A#: Pulsar
B : RAV
C : EOX, Pulsar
C#: Pulsar
D : EOX
D#: RAV
E : RAV
F : EOX, Pulsar
F#: RAV
G : RAV, EOX
G#: Pulsar
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:56 am

Looking around at magnetic pickups this morning I spied:

The Guda/Orbis Mage active magnetic pickups are on sale, one for $75 or two for $132:
https://guda-drum.com/om-active-pickup
https://guda-drum.com/orbis-mage-active ... s-2-pieces

Here's a video of a Russian guy comparing them to a couple different pairs of high end mics: (if you don't speak Russian the Closed Cationing does a good job at translating)



Also I don't think I had seen the Meinl Percussion Sonic Energy passive magnetic pickup before? ($70) Doesn't seem to be available in the USA at the moment?:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail ... tic-pickup
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:06 pm



wait until the woman takes over.

The wood tongue drum maker that seems to get the most hype here in the states is hardwood music, but i find the videos i've seen for Woodpack (above for example) to be more compelling. And it seems like they might have an option to install a pickup, though i don't see that on their site.

edit: Ľudmila Štefániková
Last edited by Nelson Baboon on Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:13 pm

JohnLRice wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:48 pm
It seems like every time I look at hand pans / tongue drumes there are several more makes that I wasn't aware of! I just saw the KAA Tone drums for the first time and they look and sound a little like a "Klingon" version of a tongue drum? Heavier and klangier that many other's. The kind of intrigue me although they seem to be a very small operation and they don't have an easy way to order that I've seen. (and they may even be out of business?)


I look forward to hearing or at least hearing about the drums you are getting, Nelson!
once they are all here, i'll sum up...but i do have the first of my 'tongue pans' coming tomorrow (according to the tracking) - the quint art.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:18 pm

i am finding the headphone solution to be quite viable, actually. (very nice closed back ones).

as far as rav - i'd look into quint art. From what i've read, i'm not impressed with Rav as a company right now, and the quint art guy was one of the original builders at Rav, and gets rave reviews. His instruments do sound a bit different - it's hard to tell from videos, but the sound seems a bit fuller. and he is a smaller company with better individual service, though if you get it from thomann, that might not be totally relevant. Just my opinion. From what i have read, i would not give Rav my $.
clusterchord wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 10:16 pm
nice and very timely thread for me :)

ive been looking into Rav and Eox for last cpl of months. after playing a Meinl tongue drum in the store last winter, it hit me how this might be for me. really loved it. i grew up playing piano, and this whole idea of modes that have less than 8 diatonic pitches (hexa, penta) or are spread across two octaves, is very interesting for performance, as well as compositionally.


still haven't bought anything yet. i already constructed an EOX scale with balance btwn simplicity/performance and having enough flexibility for more complex stuff. my impression is that having too many tongues and nearing a chromatic scale sort of defeats the purpose, and takes away from the idiomatic tonguge drum playing, and also i noticed that drums with less tounges sometimes sound better i.e. have healthier decay. has anyone else noticed that ?

anyways, i am little hesitant to order EOX as its outside of european union, and im especially afraid of receiving a drum with dead tongues. return or refund is complicated as you have already payed VAT when importing into europe.

situation with Rav is much better as Thomann is their re-seller, and they offer 3yr garantie, and are much quicker on exchange if something is not right. either refund or another unit, or buying something completely different (they have eurorack division now hehe). i have narrowed it down to the Kurd scale.

as for classic tongue drum, without additional cuts and overtones, i like the sound of basic Kosmodrum. also in Russia, so import is due. they mention user scales but don't think they're as flexible as eox in that regard. anyone tried these ?


as for the mics, i never recorded a tongue drum per se but record nylon guitars, violin, kalimbas, small percussion etc,, main factor is what room you are planning to record in. if it has:

1. desirable characteristics (large, with lot of diffusion) -> spaced omni sdc pair at 1m+
2. medium sized studio with solid absorption and difussion -> xy cardioid sdc pair at 20-40cm or m-s pair
3. a naked room and/or smaller one a.k.a. a disaster - temporary gobos and a hypercardioid pair at 20-40cm

for 3. you could go with solutions that mount on the instrument itself, piezos, microcondensers etc. but these always have unnatural and artifical sound. ideally, you want to pickup the instrument the way you hear it, or little closer/further than that depending on quality of the space, not record it as if your ear is on the drum. these mounting microphones are used only as a compromise in challenging live enviroments, for example violin or double bass in a loud electric band gig. but in acoustic ensembles, orchestras - you wont see a piezo or anything resembling a lavalier ever.


atm i use a pair of cardioid schoeps (mk4) in x-y. a mono omni mk2 , and ribbon aea r84 when i want little less of that condenser zing and detail for more organic mids. its a beautiful sound if arr is sparse and its to be solo. i plan to get another to be able properly do blumlein. think for less than ideal spaces a Beyerdynamic M160 would also be fantastic, as its a rare ribbon thats not fig8 but hypercardioid.


for metronome: Nelson, there is no mic in the world that can avoid picking it up if it plays on monitors, you can only go with closed type headphones (dt770, akg k555 etc) or a visual metronome. no other way.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:34 pm

quint art tongue pan arrived yesterday. Good fucking god does this thing sound good. it is just so fun to play. hah - going to watch the warriors (basketball for those who may be disengaged from that) tonight, and will be 'practicing' it the whole time. i just can't stop......

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:47 pm

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:34 pm
quint art tongue pan arrived yesterday. Good fucking god does this thing sound good. it is just so fun to play. hah - going to watch the warriors (basketball for those who may be disengaged from that) tonight, and will be 'practicing' it the whole time. i just can't stop......
Congrats! :party: Careful with your hands, the first day I got my Rav I over did it and hands were sore. :hihi:
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:49 pm

haven't played a rav, but maybe you were playing it harder than necessary? I'm finding that a really light touch is all that's necessary for it - a much lighter one than i need for my various tongue drums. I just can't stop playing it, and the more i play it (not ever having been a percussionist) the steeper the exponential improvement curve seems to get. So many variations of sound depending on how/where i hit the tongues.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:04 pm

I've been a percussionist for many years . . like about 50 :eek: :cry: I'm old . . .so I tend to explore as much dynamic range as I can and push myself pretty hard sometimes. (too hard occasionally, I actually broke a toe this summer just practicing something for speed on hardwood rails while wearing thin shoes . . .hard to describe) Anyways I've been playing hand drums for the last 25 years or so but drums like doumbeks and djembes etc are more forgiving on the hands than steel tongue drums and it took a few weeks for my playing technique and hand stamina to adjust/acclimate.

Did you get any mallets yet? If not look at getting some yarn covered ones.
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:07 am

most of the tongue drums came with mallets, so i have tons of them. but thus far i think that far more subtlety can be achieved with hand playing

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:37 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:07 am
most of the tongue drums came with mallets, so i have tons of them. but thus far i think that far more subtlety can be achieved with hand playing
Agreed.
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:46 am

although (see video i posted above with the woodpack drum - i think for that type of instrument, with the tongues laid out flat like that, you can achieve some amazing things with mallets. I'm going to have to work on both when I get my woodpack (working with him on a 12 tongue instrument)

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Pugilistas » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:30 am

What tonality are you getting on the woodpack?

I enjoy the sound of playing the wood slit drums by hand, but it does cut down on the tonal range. You're mostly going to be playing chords, and the sound is much softer than mallets.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by mmp » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:10 am

Forgive me if already mentioned, but does anyone make a just intonated pan?

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:14 am

Pugilistas wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:30 am
What tonality are you getting on the woodpack?

I enjoy the sound of playing the wood slit drums by hand, but it does cut down on the tonal range. You're mostly going to be playing chords, and the sound is much softer than mallets.
well, i suppose that this could change at this point (still haven't finalized the deal with woodpack - he generally responds once a day, and doesn't always remember what we said the last time. and then he'll mention options that aren't on the site etc, so i have to ask about them, etc)....but it looks like d-minor.

as far as volume, that's not a problem of course unless playing with hands is incredibly soft, but I kind of doubt that. I'm not going to be busking with it. I also will be getting a pickup built in, so we'll see how well that works.

but yeah - i would like to practice mallet technique. That video (posted above) is an inspiration to do that, though my understanding is that she has a huge amount of training.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 am

mmp wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:10 am
Forgive me if already mentioned, but does anyone make a just intonated pan?
what is that?

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by strettara » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:18 am

A handpan tuned in just intonation I imagine.
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:26 am

ah - i didn't see the "just" in the question, which explains my dumb question. I've also wondered (for down the road) whether anyone offers custom tunings that, for instance, use Scala scales, etc. I suppose that it could be done, but you'd probably have to pay a premium for an unusual custom design.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:39 am

JohnLRice wrote:
Sat Nov 20, 2021 8:48 pm
It seems like every time I look at hand pans / tongue drumes there are several more makes that I wasn't aware of! I just saw the KAA Tone drums for the first time and they look and sound a little like a "Klingon" version of a tongue drum? Heavier and klangier that many other's. The kind of intrigue me although they seem to be a very small operation and they don't have an easy way to order that I've seen. (and they may even be out of business?)
...
my impression (from looking at the facebook page, is that he is still in business, but that you just need to contact him to order/get more information.

I do like the sound from the videos i've heard, and might research one of these further down the road....

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:47 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 am
mmp wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:10 am
Forgive me if already mentioned, but does anyone make a just intonated pan?
what is that?

It's a method of tuning instruments:
In music, just intonation or pure intonation is the attempt to tune all musical intervals as whole number ratios of frequencies. An interval tuned in this way is said to be pure, and may be called a just interval; when it is sounded, no beating is heard.
What is wrong with just intonation?
Image result for just intonation
Just intonation is extremely impractical for instruments that play chords (guitar or piano), or any instrument with fixed pitches which cannot bend, such as vibraphone or marimba. In the Baroque period, 12-tone equal temperament had not yet been invented.
Just Intonation only works for a specific key so you could tune a piano for say A Major that way but most other keys might sound pretty bad. These days most instruments use "equal temperament" tuning which is a compromise that sort of "fudges" the intervals so all keys sound equally bad/good. Just Intonation would probably work well for hand pans and tongue drums but doing so might cause problems when playing along with other instruments that have equal temperament? :hmm:
An equal temperament is a musical temperament or tuning system, which approximates just intervals by dividing an octave (or other interval) into equal steps. This means the ratio of the frequencies of any adjacent pair of notes is the same, which gives an equal perceived step size as pitch is perceived roughly as the logarithm of frequency.

In classical music and Western music in general, the most common tuning system since the 18th century has been twelve-tone equal temperament (also known as 12 equal temperament, 12-TET or 12-ET), which divides the octave into 12 parts, all of which are equal on a logarithmic scale, with a ratio equal to the 12th root of 2 (12√2 ≈ 1.05946). That resulting smallest interval, 1⁄12 the width of an octave, is called a semitone or half step. In Western countries the term equal temperament, without qualification, generally means 12-TET.
All that said, people still sometimes use Just Intonation these days. One I'm familiar with is synthesists Robert Rich,
Here's a really good article on the subject by him that is well worth reading:
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/why-j ... ation/2244

And Robert was involved with the various tuning methods available in the Synthesis Technology MOTM-650 midi to CV module which I have, and I've occasionally played around with alternate tunings but it has caused me some frustration when I come back weeks later and have forgotten I changed the tuning method and things are sounding weird or bad! :hihi: Here's a list of the tunings in the MOTM-650:
https://synthtech.com/docs/MOTM-650_tunings.pdf

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:49 am

D'oh!! :doh: Well, hopefully someone else who isn't familiar will benefit from my post?! :oops:
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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by Nelson Baboon » Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:51 am

yes, john. I know what just intonation is. i've been a musician for many years, play violin since a child, etc. I misread his post. Sometimes it's annoying to be treated like a beginner with large detailed explanations, etc.
JohnLRice wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:47 am
Nelson Baboon wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:15 am
mmp wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:10 am
Forgive me if already mentioned, but does anyone make a just intonated pan?
what is that?

It's a method of tuning instruments:
In music, just intonation or pure intonation is the attempt to tune all musical intervals as whole number ratios of frequencies. An interval tuned in this way is said to be pure, and may be called a just interval; when it is sounded, no beating is heard.
What is wrong with just intonation?
Image result for just intonation
Just intonation is extremely impractical for instruments that play chords (guitar or piano), or any instrument with fixed pitches which cannot bend, such as vibraphone or marimba. In the Baroque period, 12-tone equal temperament had not yet been invented.
Just Intonation only works for a specific key so you could tune a piano for say A Major that way but most other keys might sound pretty bad. These days most instruments use "equal temperament" tuning which is a compromise that sort of "fudges" the intervals so all keys sound equally bad/good. Just Intonation would probably work well for hand pans and tongue drums but doing so might cause problems when playing along with other instruments that have equal temperament? :hmm:
An equal temperament is a musical temperament or tuning system, which approximates just intervals by dividing an octave (or other interval) into equal steps. This means the ratio of the frequencies of any adjacent pair of notes is the same, which gives an equal perceived step size as pitch is perceived roughly as the logarithm of frequency.

In classical music and Western music in general, the most common tuning system since the 18th century has been twelve-tone equal temperament (also known as 12 equal temperament, 12-TET or 12-ET), which divides the octave into 12 parts, all of which are equal on a logarithmic scale, with a ratio equal to the 12th root of 2 (12√2 ≈ 1.05946). That resulting smallest interval, 1⁄12 the width of an octave, is called a semitone or half step. In Western countries the term equal temperament, without qualification, generally means 12-TET.
All that said, people still sometimes use Just Intonation these days. One I'm familiar with is synthesists Robert Rich,
Here's a really good article on the subject by him that is well worth reading:
http://www.muzines.co.uk/articles/why-j ... ation/2244

And Robert was involved with the various tuning methods available in the Synthesis Technology MOTM-650 midi to CV module which I have, and I've occasionally played around with alternate tunings but it has caused me some frustration when I come back weeks later and have forgotten I changed the tuning method and things are sounding weird or bad! :hihi: Here's a list of the tunings in the MOTM-650:
https://synthtech.com/docs/MOTM-650_tunings.pdf

:foul: There will be a test on Monday! 🧐

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by elmerfudd » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:09 am

Couple of random thoughts. For hang pickups the Marvin triple magnetic set is the best I’ve used and gives great response without the hot spots of other contact mics I tried. Wood tongue drums, a guy named Michael Thiele made the best voiced (tune/tone) boxes I’ve played, and they are beautiful too.
C-ducer tape mic in the bottom with an xlr on the drum side gives a even mellow tone without too much mallet attack.
Just my experience.
Oh, and Oval made a cool app for iPad that had tons of tunings to try different pan layouts, had some cool patches also, nice atmospheric stuff.

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Re: old handpan, hangdrum, tongue drum thread?

Post by JohnLRice » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:59 am

Nelson Baboon wrote:
Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:51 am
yes, john. I know what just intonation is. i've been a musician for many years, play violin since a child, etc. I misread his post. Sometimes it's annoying to be treated like a beginner with large detailed explanations, etc.
I thought you probably knew but no one knows everything about any subject so I try not to judge. :despair: No insult intended, I just tend to get on a roll, maybe an unfortunate part of my personality where I waste my time and annoy others . . .but FWIW maybe someone who didn't know what it was might benefit from my OCD? I'll stop following this thread and leave you be.
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