Moog Complement B: Why two 960s?

[r_omega_]

Hi all, first post in 5U. Got into Euro about 2.5 years ago, got a Matriarch a few months ago and now I'm considering a Model 10 or 15. I had the privilege of trying a vintage Model 15 this weekend at Three Wave Music in New Jersey. I didn't know what to expect and really enjoyed the hour I spent with it.

I have a question: Of course I'm considering pairing it with a 960 sequencer and I noticed that the Complement B is an option. But why does it come with two of them? Isn't that a bit of overkill for pairing with a single Model 10/15?

[shredsickgnar]

I think the Complement B has two sequencers for the IIIP system.

[luketeaford]

"Utah patching" Having sequencers to sequence sequencers or two independent sequencers to turn on and off. There is a lot you can do with it. I have two of most sequencers I own...

[suitandtieguy]

I would strongly recommend getting the Synthesizers.com Q960, a couple of STG Soundlabs Switch modules, and some smaller auxilliary voltage sequencer instead, you can do much more sophisticated patching and it wouldn't take up more space.

my personal system is 30MU of tone modules and 30MU of sequencing modules, and that Q960 is right at the top. I build my own sequencers and wind up using that thing more. (but admittadly my own sequencers were designed to go _with_ the 960, conceptually.)

[EPTC]

Easy use: Have one sequencer going into filters and controlling amplitude while the other controls a separate sequence of note generation.

[Putte]

It must be absolutely glorious to have a Moog modular system, including a 960. Two of them don´t doulbe the glory, I´d say to myself, and therefore get a cheaper and more capable system on the side. Like suitandtieguy wrote, a Q960 and some other switches and dividers. Just a small system could expand your Moog modular possibilities a lot.

[JohnLRice]

Hi all, first post in 5U. Got into Euro about 2.5 years ago, got a Matriarch a few months ago and now I'm considering a Model 10 or 15. I had the privilege of trying a vintage Model 15 this weekend at Three Wave Music in New Jersey. I didn't know what to expect and really enjoyed the hour I spent with it.

Welcome to 5U. If you can afford a Moog modular then I'm sure you will be in heaven with it but if the potential financial strain will be a stressful burden you might want to look at more affordable and arguably just as capable (if not more so) options like suitandtieguy suggested? In 5U there is everything from Moog clones that are about 98% identical to Moog, and all the way to modules /systems that only have panel height and 1/4' jacks in common with Moog. Arguably the closest to Moog clone currently available is Synth-Werk and their Model 10 system is about $5,000 less than the current official Moog reissue one. Of course in the long run I'd expect the Moog reissue to appreciate a little better in value than the Synth-Werk one simply because it says Moog on the panel?
https://www.synth-werk.com/content/cust ... rd-systems

I have a question: Of course I'm considering pairing it with a 960 sequencer and I noticed that the Complement B is an option. But why does it come with two of them? Isn't that a bit of overkill for pairing with a single Model 10/15?

Like EPTC said, you can use one sequencer for pitches and the other for filter cutoff etc. Here's an early test I did when I first got my Moon 569 sequencer, the 569 has four 8 step rows but each row can run independently including clocked at different rates so having two 960 sequencers or a 960 plus some other sequencer would allow you to do similar patches.


Or with a third sequential switch you could create melodic lines up to 48 steps. Or with a clock divider you could use one sequencer to transpose the other one one every 24 clocks (24 steps transposed 24 times . . .that's a lot of notes! ;-) Or you could do a technique some refer to a "pattern bussing" or variations on it where instead of switching between rows in normal order you can mix up the order of the rows, etc. Here's the man who coined the phrase pattern bussing (I think?) and his initial demo of it on his huge Synthesizers.com system:

[umma gumma]

You can never have too many sequencers!

[r_omega_]

If you can afford a Moog modular then I'm sure you will be in heaven with it but if the potential financial strain will be a stressful burden you might want to look at more affordable and arguably just as capable (if not more so) options like suitandtieguy suggested? In 5U there is everything from Moog clones that are about 98% identical to Moog, and all the way to modules /systems that only have panel height and 1/4' jacks in common with Moog. Arguably the closest to Moog clone currently available is Synth-Werk and their Model 10 system is about $5,000 less than the current official Moog reissue one. Of course in the long run I'd expect the Moog reissue to appreciate a little better in value than the Synth-Werk one simply because it says Moog on the panel?

Yes, the above is definitely a point I am contemplating. On that note, I really enjoyed this 2017 post by @Squattamolie:

viewtopic.php?p=2561542#p2561542

[r_omega_]

Thanks for the replies, everyone, this was exactly what I was looking for! If I did go the authentic 960 route, I don't think I could justify having two of them. So if I bought the Complement B, I'd probably sell one of them to recuperate some of the cost.

That said, I have another question: Why does it seem like people are not selling or trading individual Moog modules practically ever? I'd think more people would want to mix and match modules and customize their systems...?

[Ockeghem]

Most Moog modules exist as part of a Moog system, of course. There are not a lot of these around, at least the originals. So fewer parts to part out.
The dotcom and other 5U systems are a lot more compatible to mix and match I think, and more readily available.
The only people likely to buy individual Moog modules already have them. Perhaps they trade with each other?

[suitandtieguy]

Thanks for the replies, everyone, this was exactly what I was looking for! If I did go the authentic 960 route, I don't think I could justify having two of them. So if I bought the Complement B, I'd probably sell one of them to recuperate some of the cost.

That said, I have another question: Why does it seem like people are not selling or trading individual Moog modules practically ever? I'd think more people would want to mix and match modules and customize their systems...?

I regret to inform you that an original Moog system (1964-84, 2014-present) is not Eurorack.

The modules are "like a modular mixer modular" not "like eurorack modular." Systems and wiring harnesses are designed around specific arrangments, and while power is always on the same pins on the edge connectors, different modules need different power, and modules also connect to other modules through the wiring harness.

You would literally have to take your system to a repair guy who specialises in Moog systems to do any module swapping etc.

I tried talking that company in Asheville into doing modern modules that were compatible with Synthesizers.com power, built with modern techniques, and affordable enough to be attainable but still premium, but like many great product opportunities given to them, it was ignored, which is why I allowed myself to be acquired by muSonics.

[r_omega_]

I regret to inform you that an original Moog system (1964-84, 2014-present) is not Eurorack.

The modules are "like a modular mixer modular" not "like eurorack modular." Systems and wiring harnesses are designed around specific arrangments, and while power is always on the same pins on the edge connectors, different modules need different power, and modules also connect to other modules through the wiring harness.

You would literally have to take your system to a repair guy who specialises in Moog systems to do any module swapping etc.

I tried talking that company in Asheville into doing modern modules that were compatible with Synthesizers.com power, built with modern techniques, and affordable enough to be attainable but still premium, but like many great product opportunities given to them, it was ignored, which is why I allowed myself to be acquired by muSonics.

Ok, that is very insightful and helpful, thank you! So if I bought a Complement B and simply wanted to sell one of the 960s to recuperate the cost, I might have a hard time finding a buyer, even if they already have Moog full format gear, since the average person wouldn't know how to interface it into a preexisting Moog system?

[suitandtieguy]

Ok, that is very insightful and helpful, thank you! So if I bought a Complement B and simply wanted to sell one of the 960s to recuperate the cost, I might have a hard time finding a buyer, even if they already have Moog full format gear, since the average person wouldn't know how to interface it into a preexisting Moog system?

yeah man.

Roger NAILED IT 20 years ago with the Q960.

just do that. it's so nice.

I know these things inside and out, I spent 6 weeks last year with two entire-ass systems that my late friend Gene Stopp designed for Moog (IIIC and System 55 ... a wild customer of mine has both) and I can tell you there is no functional or vibe difference.

I have my own ideas about how to improve the 960, but as far as function goes, just call the new new owners down in Texas for now. It's a fucking great module and I'm 100% certain the new new owners are doing their best to maintain the quality of the one in my own system.

[commoner]

I know these things inside and out, I spent 6 weeks last year with two entire-ass systems <snip>

I couldn’t resist

9CB79119-1EA7-4EFC-94F5-4009EBBB0E10.jpeg (53.19 KiB) Viewed 468 times

[suitandtieguy]

I couldn’t resist

[defutura]

(but admittadly my own sequencers were designed to go _with_ the 960, conceptually.)

Hey Suit, since this thread is gently going OT anyway, could you elaborate a bit more on how they are meant to go together, practically and conceptually?

For context, I have a Time Suite but not a 960.

[bandwidth]

I use a Q960 with a Q119 and SSL Gate Expander, or Q960 with a VOS sequencer. I would love a Time Suite.

[Ockeghem]

(but admittadly my own sequencers were designed to go _with_ the 960, conceptually.)

Hey Suit, since this thread is gently going OT anyway, could you elaborate a bit more on how they are meant to go together, practically and conceptually?

For context, I have a Time Suite but not a 960.

Not sure of STG's conceptions here but I can imagine lots of ways for using the time suite for timings and the 960 for pitch sequences, filter modulations, gates, or ?

[jsleeio]

I'm not in 5U or familiar with the 960/variants but I do like sequencer threads. There's lots of reasons to have multiple sequencers. Here's some in my head right now; I'm sure there's many many more to be explored

0. controlling separate voices

1. mingling sequences of different lengths (so that things go around a bunch of variations and eventually circle back to the starting point)

2. summing/transposing, eg. if you want to do key changes

3. maybe you want extra CV and/or gate rows;
- I like to use a row to control gate width
- maybe another one for gate delay to program some swing
- amplitude and/or accent level
- filter resonance accents for extra-bangin' basslines

4. graphic VCO, where you clock the sequencer at audio rate and use the steps to "draw" a waveform

5. controlling a VC switch, eg. if you want to do some kind of call/response patch

It's a modular system. Try to break out of the box!

[commoner]

There’s also the fact that it’s useful as other than a “sequencer”. 3 rows of cv settings with manual switches to up to 8 different values (or however you’d describe this usage). Great manual control source. Add a Q170 to enhance.

[suitandtieguy]

Hey Suit, since this thread is gently going OT anyway, could you elaborate a bit more on how they are meant to go together, practically and conceptually?

The entire sequencing system was meant to augment a 960 with a similar motivation to how the Projekt Elektronik sequencers were originally meant to augment 960s, then eventually became their own independent sequencing network in the Baumann system.

first of all, here's a flowchart of the original system:



using the internal clock in the 960 sucks, so you want to have some kind of clock source you can sync to the rest of your studio. That's the Time Divider: http://stgsoundlabs.com/products/time_divider_mu.htm and Time Buffer: http://stgsoundlabs.com/products/time_buffer_mu.htm

You also might need different counts of those clocks for sequencer sync purposes, so that's what the Integer Divider is for: http://stgsoundlabs.com/products/intege ... ers_mu.htm

For voltage controlled ratcheting and sequence selection (yes, using a sequencer to select sequences) you need the Switch: http://stgsoundlabs.com/products/switch_mu.htm

The video discussed in this thread is pretty comprehensive about using the sequencing network with an Archangel, but you can just use a 960 instead:

https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=78520

What absolutely sucks right now is that I can't make ANY of this except for the Switch. It was all designed 15 years ago and I want to update it.

I've even got schematics drawn for discrete logic replacements (!!!) of everything, so they don't need microcontrollers. The whole system would be much different but still have the same ideas of a Shift Manager driving Voltage Mini-Stores and Trigger Mini-Stores, but it wouldn't hook into the sync bus at all, you'd patch clocks directly from a new CMOS Time Divider until I make a new Digital Shift Manager that would allow for new directions and some other cool stuff.

I want to deconstruct the idea of a sequencing network even further than before, and I even have a schematic for a thing that would allow a Q960 to control these new slave sequencers as well via the connector on the back that no one bothered to do anything with.

The only reason I'm not making these new sequencers and such is that I have to get the MooSonics DIY synthesiser done as quickly as possible. It has priority.

[XXXEsq]

I own a vintage Moog IIP and a large 110 5u system based around DotCom modules. As much as I like Moog (except for the continuing midi problems with the One), I'd never spend the money on a Sequencer Compliment B unless I had money to burn, or was concerned with resale value.

As has been stated above, the Q960/961/962/963 combo with a Q171 quantizer is a great intro to sequencing and you'd have enough left over to buy several more. I also have a Q119 and love to run them together for real time improv.

Funny story: when I got my Cirklon (which really can perform a lot of the stuff you can do with a pair of 960s like having sequences alter other sequences, but without the hands-on performative advantages) I'd planned to sell my hardware sequencers. But instead, I find myself clocking and controlling them from the Cirklon and that is a ridiculously powerful combo.

In the days before Midi, we used to sync sequencers to audio tape by recording click-tracks and using them to clock our sequencers. It took a bit of creative patching, but it worked pretty well. Now, I use midi to sync the Cirlkon which then (through it's CV board and BOB) clocks my sequencers which stay in time with my tracks so I can do real time stuff. So instead of replacing one with the other, I use both. You can do the same trick from most DAWs with a little bit of patching (e.g., click track audio out to Q125 voltage processor to the shift in on the 960).

Hand's on sequencers are great. I'll probably replace the Q119 with another Q960 set at some point.

[kindredlost]

Another interesting way to use the 960 sequential controller is in the "3rd Row Timing" mode. Send the first row through a slew, use the second row as a binary voltage to enable the slew (or not) on each step and of course the third row sets the step length. Using this patch to generate interesting modulation phrases with more character than a simple LFO or envelope.

I've used the 3rd Row Timing with two 960's and set the last step out to reset the first stage of the longer timed sequencer. It makes for some polyrhythmic patterns that are a little more difficult to patch up on standard sequencers.

It does require the internal clock to behave right so there is that limitation but I often still use other sequencers with my pair of 960's and the internal oscillator clock output. Suit and Tie Guy is correct about having dividers and a common clock source as an easier way to generate timing between several sequencers but it still can be done with the output from the 960 internal oscillator as a main clock. You just have to go old school to get there.

I used a pair of 960's and a pair of the time suite modules from STG as well as the Moon 563 trigger sequencer and a Dove Museq to do a recent Berlin School number. No ratcheting or 3rd Row Timig but instead I concentrated on the manual step controls on one of the 960's as a classic time signature change rhythm tool. I'm still convinced the 960 is the easiest way to pull off that type of thing.

Here is the performance FWIW...

[jjsynth]

Epic…