Can you bypass a S&H module?

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simion
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Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by simion »

Hello,
Just a question from a newbie, please:
I want to add a sample&hold module to my rack, for all the cool new control options it will offer

Let's say I patch VCO>S&H>Filter>Out. Can I bypass the S&H module without repatching? [To turn the "level" down to zero (a dry/wet knob, let's say) and the signal to pass from the VCO to the filter without being affected by the S&H module, while the patch actually goes through the S&H module].
Is this something that a simple attenuator can solve?
I ask because I see that no S&H module has a dry/wet knob, most of them have no knobs at all, just trigger CV. Can I control start/stop the trigger CV input? Or, when I patch the module it will always trigger unless I unpatch it?

Basically, what I am looking for is to be able to switch on/off the S&H option when I desire, without manually plugging in or out a cable into the "trig in". Is this possible? Only some S&H modules offer this option, or is this a default option for all (that i just missed)?

Thank you very much, folks!
Somehow I've got this feeling that this is a naive, silly question, so, if so, please don't mind me... :) Thanks!
simion
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by simion »

Actually, no, sorry, what I meant was to patch Sequencer>S&H>VCO... But the question is still the same:
Can I bypass the S&H and get the signal from Sequencer directly to VCO without getting the S&H module out from the chain?
Thank you!
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Carrousel
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by Carrousel »

I’m not 100% confident I’ve interpreted your query correctly but I think youre after a track and hold, rather than sample and hold. A track & hold module lets the signal go through unaltered until the trigger signal (in this case needs to be a gate) goes high - when the gate is held high the current static value of the incoming signal is ‘held’ until the gate goes low. So whereas a S&H jumps from one held value to the next, a T&H can alternate between the original, unaltered signal and values which have been ‘held’ (rather than ‘sampled’) from the original incoming signal. Hope that makes sense and is helpful.
Last edited by Carrousel on Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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analogbrainsurgeon
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by analogbrainsurgeon »

Typically your S&H would feed the v/oct of your VCO (or quantizer and then that into the VCO). Sample and Hold really is all about sampling a voltage and holding it until the next trigger, and track and hold will hold while the gate is present. That's kind of the whole idea behind them, so I'm not sure how one would let voltage through without sampling or tracking it, unless there's a module that duplicates the signal and then has a raw out and a second sample/track and hold output. This may just be a case of learning functions and their place in a system, so that's cool. I hope this helped and gets you closer to the solution you have in your mind.
simion
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by simion »

Thank you very much, people!
Yeah, seems like the most straight forward solution would be to just split the signal in 2 (1 raw and one through S&H) and sending each to a mixer channel, and just mute the "S&H affected channel" if I want to "bypass" the S&H module.
Your explanations are very helpful because I still try to wrap my head around the S&H (or T&H) concept, I wouldn't bet I completely understood it even though I watched a tone of videos on YT. So, thank you!!
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BaloErets
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by BaloErets »

simion wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:12 am Thank you very much, people!
Yeah, seems like the most straight forward solution would be to just split the signal in 2 (1 raw and one through S&H) and sending each to a mixer channel, and just mute the "S&H affected channel" if I want to "bypass" the S&H module.
Your explanations are very helpful because I still try to wrap my head around the S&H (or T&H) concept, I wouldn't bet I completely understood it even though I watched a tone of videos on YT. So, thank you!!
Just a small addition to spark your mind with some creative ideas in the future; Anytime you want a dry/wet "knob" so to speak in your patch, you can use a crossfader module for that; You patch your original signal to the input (in your case the sequencer output) that would be fully 100% when the knob is to the left, and then the signal after the S&H to the input that is at 100% when the knob is to the right.

Voila! A dry/wet knob for your patch!
simion
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by simion »

BaloErets wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:19 am
simion wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:12 am Thank you very much, people!
Yeah, seems like the most straight forward solution would be to just split the signal in 2 (1 raw and one through S&H) and sending each to a mixer channel, and just mute the "S&H affected channel" if I want to "bypass" the S&H module.
Your explanations are very helpful because I still try to wrap my head around the S&H (or T&H) concept, I wouldn't bet I completely understood it even though I watched a tone of videos on YT. So, thank you!!
Just a small addition to spark your mind with some creative ideas in the future; Anytime you want a dry/wet "knob" so to speak in your patch, you can use a crossfader module for that; You patch your original signal to the input (in your case the sequencer output) that would be fully 100% when the knob is to the left, and then the signal after the S&H to the input that is at 100% when the knob is to the right.

Voila! A dry/wet knob for your patch!
OMG!! You are so right! And it's that simple, yes! That solves it... Thank you, brother! :) These little things make modular fascinating.. Even though I am "dumb" because I am a total newbie, I sense there is a way, a "hack", in concept, that I just can't figure out, yet. And it was so "in my face" :))
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target_destroyed
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by target_destroyed »

A mult + a switch (manual or voltage controlled) would work better for this than a crossfader. Sequencer>Mult>Switch + Sequencer>Mult>S&H>Switch. Switch output to VCO. Switch between the two sources at the flick of a... switch. Unless of course you want a blend of the S&H signal and the unaffected signal, then a crossfader is the answer. If the idea is just to go from 100% wet to 100% dry instantly a switch is more practical.
60hz
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by 60hz »

Just to mention: It can also be fun to use the S&H like in your original question, after the oscillator (before or after the filter). Patch a square wave LFO (or second VCO) into the trigger input of the S&H. Then, lowering the LFO frequency will give you a sample-rate-reduction effect. Increasing the frequency enough will go back to the original sound. Voila, dry/wet control! (but for a different effect)
simion
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by simion »

target_destroyed wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:03 am A mult + a switch (manual or voltage controlled) would work better for this than a crossfader. Sequencer>Mult>Switch + Sequencer>Mult>S&H>Switch. Switch output to VCO. Switch between the two sources at the flick of a... switch. Unless of course you want a blend of the S&H signal and the unaffected signal, then a crossfader is the answer. If the idea is just to go from 100% wet to 100% dry instantly a switch is more practical.
Thank you, mate! Yes, it makes a lot of sense, I mean it sounds like an even better option. and I already have a mult and a mixer with mutes switches! :) I will try this right now :) thanks!!
simion
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by simion »

60hz wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 12:19 pm Just to mention: It can also be fun to use the S&H like in your original question, after the oscillator (before or after the filter). Patch a square wave LFO (or second VCO) into the trigger input of the S&H. Then, lowering the LFO frequency will give you a sample-rate-reduction effect. Increasing the frequency enough will go back to the original sound. Voila, dry/wet control! (but for a different effect)
Thank you, mate!! such a different approach giving me the same result :) damn i love this forum! and the potential of modular, even though I am like thrown into an ocean and I can't properly swim yet.. But I love the vastness of the ocean :))) modular forces you to think and push your imagination
Thank you all people for helping and being patient with a newbie!!
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Whelm
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by Whelm »

simion wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:32 am
BaloErets wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:19 am
simion wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:12 am Thank you very much, people!
Yeah, seems like the most straight forward solution would be to just split the signal in 2 (1 raw and one through S&H) and sending each to a mixer channel, and just mute the "S&H affected channel" if I want to "bypass" the S&H module.
Your explanations are very helpful because I still try to wrap my head around the S&H (or T&H) concept, I wouldn't bet I completely understood it even though I watched a tone of videos on YT. So, thank you!!
Just a small addition to spark your mind with some creative ideas in the future; Anytime you want a dry/wet "knob" so to speak in your patch, you can use a crossfader module for that; You patch your original signal to the input (in your case the sequencer output) that would be fully 100% when the knob is to the left, and then the signal after the S&H to the input that is at 100% when the knob is to the right.

Voila! A dry/wet knob for your patch!
OMG!! You are so right! And it's that simple, yes! That solves it... Thank you, brother! :) These little things make modular fascinating.. Even though I am "dumb" because I am a total newbie, I sense there is a way, a "hack", in concept, that I just can't figure out, yet. And it was so "in my face" :))
I agree that using a switch would probably get you closer to where you want to go, but for the sake of adding another mind spark, if you don't have a crossfader module you can easily patch your own crossfader using two VCAs and an inverter (attenuverter usually).

Take whatever CV you want to use to do the crossfade (say an LFO), and mult it. Copy 1 controls VCA 1. Copy 2 gets inverted. Copy 2 controls VCA 2. Now when VCA 1 goes up, VCA 2 goes down. Voila crossfader. Put the output of both VCAs into a mixer, and the output of that mixer into your v/oct or whatever.

You can also use this technique to make a dirty switch if the CV you use is a square wave.
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by yhf »

target_destroyed wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:03 am A mult + a switch (manual or voltage controlled) would work better for this than a crossfader. Sequencer>Mult>Switch + Sequencer>Mult>S&H>Switch. Switch output to VCO. Switch between the two sources at the flick of a... switch. Unless of course you want a blend of the S&H signal and the unaffected signal, then a crossfader is the answer. If the idea is just to go from 100% wet to 100% dry instantly a switch is more practical.
Agreed. Depending on the design of the switch module, you might want to add a buffer, though. Doepfer say about their A-150:

„To protect the electronic switches in case of an unsuitable patch (e.g. connection of two outputs) a 1k protection resistor is inserted into the O/I line of each switch. If control voltages used for VCOs are switched this may cause a small voltage drop and lead to undesired audible detuning. For this application we recommend to insert a CV buffer between A-150-1 and the VCO(s), e.g. the modules A-180-3, A-180-4 or the Precision Adder A-185-2. Integrating the buffers into the module A-150-1 is not possible because this would ruin the bidirectionality of the switches.“

https://doepfer.de/a150.htm
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moremagic
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Re: Can you bypass a S&H module?

Post by moremagic »

the first answer is the simplest. forget the sample and hold, a track and hold will do what you want right out of the box. the more complicated solutions on offer are worth trying if youve got all them modules, but if you gota go shopping, look for a track and hold. the toppobrillo sport mod can do both sample/hold & track/hold, so might be one to look for
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