Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

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SlagRalden
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Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by SlagRalden » Tue May 04, 2021 9:04 am

Soooo I own the Verbos Harmonic Osc and its the best sounding thing I've found in modular!
it has such a round and soft tone which is perfect for the type of stuff I'm making these days.
So now I'm looking for some other osc and was pretty much focusing on Verbos (most likely the Complex Osc) because they did such a good job on the HO
but then someone was selling the Akemie's castle and all the demos i was hearing found these sweet spots of the soft/round tone i'm looking for...
i don't care about the difference in synthesis type, i only care about getting the sounds i want and being subtle with modulation to create life and movement... I'm worried that the AC will be harsher or thinner sounding in person then in these demos... I don't push things to extremes anymore and just want something that sounds pretty (i did harsh noise for over a decade, let a guy relax in his old age!)

anyone have experience with both? or have recommendations of other osc with tone like the harmonic osc?

P.S. the akemie's castle is basically two complex osc in one package because it can have 2 operators FMing (PMing) eachother coming out of each output

P.S.S. i think multipling the wave form of the operators on AC leads to the same harmonic series as the HO....x4!

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by enno » Tue May 04, 2021 9:26 am

I can't help you with a comparison against the Verbos CO, but one info nugget on the AC that might be relevant for you is that the 2 of the 3 main modulation inputs (wave and multiplier) are stepped, meaning you cant get soft movement from those. It's not like the changes are jarring, but they are audible. The level input is continuous though.
Other than that - you can certainly get nice and round tones out of the AC! It's still FM, so the tendency is clean vs warm and round, but that is apparent in the demos.

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lisa
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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by lisa » Tue May 04, 2021 9:43 am

Akemie's Castle doesn't really have a soft/round tone in general (on its own). It's partly rather stiff and steppy. It can be used to make soft sounding music but you'll have to put in a bit of an effort.

And there is no algorithm to choose from with two independent FM voices. It's either one operator FMing another from one of the outputs and two operators just mixed together from the other output or a more complex setup with all of the operators intertwined. Also, there is no cross-modulation like you'd find in any classic complex oscillator.
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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by SlagRalden » Tue May 04, 2021 9:46 am

enno wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:26 am
2 of the 3 main modulation inputs (wave and multiplier) are stepped, meaning you cant get soft movement from those. It's not like the changes are jarring, but they are audible.
I played with the AC like 3 years ago when I was at Perfect Circuit and remember that being annoying... i think the way i patch now this wouldn't be such a big deal tho

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by SlagRalden » Tue May 04, 2021 9:52 am

lisa wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:43 am
Akemie's Castle doesn't really have a soft/round tone in general (on its own). It's partly rather stiff and steppy. It can be used to make soft sounding music but you'll have to put in a bit of an effort.
yea this is sort of my fear, i don't want to spend all my time 'dialing it in'
lisa wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:43 am
And there is no algorithm to choose from with two independent FM voices. It's either one operator FMing another from one of the outputs and two operators just mixed together from the other output or a more complex setup with all of the operators intertwined. Also, there is no cross-modulation like you'd find in any classic complex oscillator.
ah yes, i'm assuming the algos are a part of the chip because they seem so arbitrary and weird

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by oldenjon » Tue May 04, 2021 9:56 am

Yeah AC is digital FM, and limited by the fact that it's based on an old Yamaha chip (also a selling point). Having the multiplier not quantized could be annoying and there's not really a way to get smooth interpolation of waveforms with the wave control either. Those inputs want 'stepped' CVs IMO, but smooth CV can sound good too.
Last edited by oldenjon on Tue May 04, 2021 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by Yes Powder » Tue May 04, 2021 10:00 am

SlagRalden wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:52 am
ah yes, i'm assuming the algos are a part of the chip because they seem so arbitrary and weird
Yup, the algorithms in these old FM chips were hardwired. I think the idea was to allow people making music for those chips to choose between more polyphony or more complexity. The two separate-output algorithms do seem redundant, though.

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by lisa » Tue May 04, 2021 10:16 am

Yes Powder wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 10:00 am
The two separate-output algorithms do seem redundant, though.
One of the oscillators has the chord mode so you can choose to have FM chords or plain waveform chords. Therefore not fully redundant, I'd say.
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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by Cybananna » Tue May 04, 2021 11:11 am

I have both. They are just two totally different animals. My best recommendation is to watch a lot of videos and decide which sound best gives yo what you want. The AC is very old DX sounding but you can get more out of it because of the modular nature. So far as any thin-ness, I don’t know. I use the two for such different applications I’ve never thought about that. I’ll try to play around with them this eve and report back.

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by szzdz » Tue May 04, 2021 11:23 am

look for an older verbos co with the vactrols - started off with the newer one, found it too harsh and cold and traded it for a harmonic oscillator which I love! recently got an older one from 2013 and it’s a totally different experience.

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by starthief » Tue May 04, 2021 12:17 pm

I don't find Akemie's Castle "thin" at all. Noisy, quirky, steppy etc. yes but it can sound beautiful, and works well with LPGs and filters.

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by enno » Tue May 04, 2021 12:35 pm

starthief wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 12:17 pm
I don't find Akemie's Castle "thin" at all. Noisy, quirky, steppy etc. yes but it can sound beautiful, and works well with LPGs and filters.
I'm with you. LPGs I'd say are almost a requirement, unless one loves clicks and noise ;)

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by starthief » Tue May 04, 2021 1:30 pm

I mean, I love clicks and noise sometimes, and LPGs are still great :D

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by VZvision » Tue May 04, 2021 1:43 pm

I own both and if you’re looking for a soft round tone out of the box, then Akemie’s may not be the best tool for the job. You can get soft and round with it but you would be using a very limited range of the overall module.

For example, the warmest sounds you can get from it would be either:
1. using an OSC pair set in mixing mode (no FM) and a filter downstream if you’re waveforms move away from sines.
2. Using a 2-op algo with very light FM settings and sticking to sine waves.

Even the upper end of the level pot for each operator is steppy simply by the nature of the chip. As cannon fodder for drum sounds or for heavy digital sounds, it’s absolutely amazing, but I wouldn’t put “soft and round” in its top five characteristics.

The Verbos Complex OSC definitely qualifies as a warm sounding Oscillator though. I would say you can even drive it to be softer than the HO overall. One thing to look out for though on the Complex OSC is that the modulator is unique. It runs 0-10V as opposed to the regular -5/+5V you’d expect. It makes for interesting uses with the main OSC esp. with the AM bus, however, if you have a plan on distributing the modulator Oscillator to other parts of your system, it’s good to know about this quirk.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by SlagRalden » Tue May 04, 2021 1:55 pm

szzdz wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 11:23 am
look for an older verbos co with the vactrols - started off with the newer one, found it too harsh and cold and traded it for a harmonic oscillator which I love! recently got an older one from 2013 and it’s a totally different experience.
Very good to know, I’ll keep an eye out

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by SlagRalden » Tue May 04, 2021 2:01 pm

VZvision wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 1:43 pm

The Verbos Complex OSC definitely qualifies as a warm sounding Oscillator though. I would say you can even drive it to be softer than the HO overall. One thing to look out for though on the Complex OSC is that the modulator is unique. It runs 0-10V as opposed to the regular -5/+5V you’d expect. It makes for interesting uses with the main OSC esp. with the AM bus, however, if you have a plan on distributing the modulator Oscillator to other parts of your system, it’s good to know about this quirk.
I saw that and thought it was an interesting design choice... i also thought it was weird they didn’t include a sine with the modulating osc :despair: ... do you have a DPO?... honestly the most interesting complex osc I’ve seen (besides maybe instruo) but I have a gut feeling it’s harsh/ thin as can be

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by lisa » Tue May 04, 2021 3:10 pm

DPO is rubbery and woody, not harsh or thin. Instruō Cš-L Is way harsher (at extreme FM settings).
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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by 11235813 » Tue May 04, 2021 3:14 pm

SlagRalden wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:04 am
...or have recommendations of other osc with tone like the harmonic osc?
Lots of discussion about cluster & complex oscillators here:
https://www.modwiggler.com/forum/viewto ... 8#p3519578

The "Cluster / Swarm" sound may not be exactly what you're looking for, but a bunch of the suggestions are collected into a single ModularGrid so you can click the little "get info" button and immediately find videos of each...

I hope this helps.

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Re: Akemie's castle vs Verbos Complex Osc vs ?

Post by me0w9 » Tue May 04, 2021 10:01 pm

szzdz wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 11:23 am
look for an older verbos co with the vactrols - started off with the newer one, found it too harsh and cold and traded it for a harmonic oscillator which I love! recently got an older one from 2013 and it’s a totally different experience.
Same thoughts exactly although the newer one has some really good qualities and I routinely use both. To OP, I think as others have said, go with the one that has the sound you love!

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