Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

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NaiveMelody
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Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by NaiveMelody » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:25 pm

I've spent today using my Basimilus Iteritas Alter. I love how it sounds, and how modulation makes it go crazy. It's basically a full drum voice and more.

Using BIA as a full drum voice sounds amazing, but I feel limited by only having a single, mono out. From what I can see that's the same as other drum voices too, such as Akemie's Taiko.

Do people have any recommendations of techniques for spreading some of the sounds to get more placements across the stereo field?

A couple of ideas I thought of were:

- A simpler cross fade / panner with CV control of the pan

- Using a sequential switch + something like Jumble Henge or Worng Vector Space - take the drums in to the switch and connect each out of the switch to the stereo field module. A trigger to the sequential switch would cycle through the stereo field.

Are there other options or anything more effective? Or is the question itself not a great approach?

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by Parnelli » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:52 pm

Worng LRMSMSLR will do the trick if you have a hp filter to modulate the Side with. Sudio into L, S out to hp, hp filter out to S in, no resonance on the filter, fiddle with the frequency to get the separation you desire.

There are also a number of FX modules with a mono input that give a stereo output, I started with a 2hp Verb that gave me a deeper field over my mono mixes. I generally use a bit of reverb on the upper register drums anyway to make them sound more alive, a stereo module like the Verb adds depth as well.

Before all of that though I simply used my Pittsburgh dual VCA and panned things with an lfo signal negative side inverted to run the two VCA channels.
Last edited by Parnelli on Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by NaiveMelody » Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:57 pm

Parnelli wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:52 pm
Worng LRMSMSLR will do the trick if you have a hp filter to modulate the Side with.

There are also a number of FX modules with a mono input that give a stereo output, I started with a 2hp Verb that gave me a deeper field over my mono mixes.
Ah of course LRMSMSLR would be good for this sort of thing. Great shout.

I’ve got some modules with mono to stereo which definitely help widen. I guess I’m thinking more about being able to get different sounds from the mono out on either side - or at least a convincing enough effect of that.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by Parnelli » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:01 pm

When I really want to mangle things I use the WMD DPLR which can really mangle your sounds with whirling swooshy doppler like effects, thus the name I'm sure, and it pans them between the A and B outputs.

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Neo
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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by Neo » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:02 am

I would think a CV pan module would be ideal. Then each hit could have it's own position in the stereo field. If you don't have a pan module you could use 2 VCA's and something to flip the CV, like an attenuverter. You could use a sequencer or something like a wogglebug or Transient Modules 4R to control the pan. Sounds like a great idea... I think I'll try it with my BIA

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by Raymond » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:51 am

Cv pan modules would work for sure but it would take quite a lot of work I think compared to LRMSMSLR to reach something. Of course there would be more options but way more work.
It depends on the workflow you prefer at the end. All my voices are mono and I take care of the stereo imaging in the DAW with subtle delay, reverb, EQ and stereo panning plug in very lightly sometimes when I want to “equalise” one sound against an other in the stereo field but I try as much as possible to avoid them. They can very quickly create holes in the field in the center if they are not used properly and carefully.

And other trick while recording is to record several times the same patterns with slight differences and pan those takes with different EQ, filter, effects and what not.
Links to the music -->
https://linktr.ee/soundofraymond

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by klstay » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:55 am

I have an ALM Boss Bow Two sitting next to a WORNG Sound Stage for things like this. Triggers advance to each output which is patched to where I want the voice also on that trigger to appear spectrum and spread wise.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by NaiveMelody » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:18 am

klstay wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:55 am
I have an ALM Boss Bow Two sitting next to a WORNG Sound Stage for things like this. Triggers advance to each output which is patched to where I want the voice also on that trigger to appear spectrum and spread wise.
I was wondering about doing something like that, so am really interested to hear your experience with it... does it switch between positions relatively gracefully or can it be quite glitchy at faster speeds? Which in itself might be cool

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by klstay » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:19 pm

Step and strobe mode the way I have been using it are "graceful" while address mode gets glitchy easily at even fairly low speeds.

Being able to set with an 8 step trigger sequence voice mods AND spectral and spatial placement is just slick IMHO. Plus, you can go to strobe mode to jumble things around and hit on things you would not have done yourself.

In addition to just those two modules then sending Sound Stage L/R to a pan/fade which then feeds a mono panning mixer channel adds another layer on top of that even.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by NaiveMelody » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:41 pm

Thanks for the info klstay, I’ll give it some further thought.

I’m trying to keep a small case and trying to choose between something like Boss Bow + Jumble Henge and Vortices or Scan and Pan

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by klstay » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:48 pm

I had the space for a Sound Stage and the extra couple of features it has over the "baby brother" Jumble Henge.

I have a Vortices with a WMD 4TTEN between it and the Sound Stage for fading in modulations to pans/crossfade/levels depending on patch. An E520 is on the mono "aux" loop and a Joranalogue TX2 as final output from Vortices master out. Vortices vs. Cosmix was a tough choice for me.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by NaiveMelody » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:12 pm

Cosmix does look class; the Vortices just seems to ooze character and creativity though. You enjoying it?

Maybe I need to review my overall case - perhaps I’ll need to go bigger!

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by tl3ss » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm

NaiveMelody wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:18 am
klstay wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:55 am
I have an ALM Boss Bow Two sitting next to a WORNG Sound Stage for things like this. Triggers advance to each output which is patched to where I want the voice also on that trigger to appear spectrum and spread wise.
I was wondering about doing something like that, so am really interested to hear your experience with it... does it switch between positions relatively gracefully or can it be quite glitchy at faster speeds? Which in itself might be cool
I’ve been doing this for awhile now. Very fun. Also fun to patch various outputs of a standard oscillator into the soundstage and then send an output to the SS and then into different places on the soundstage, and then using the onboard stereo VCA to make a cool stereo synth voice.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by Neo » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:56 pm

Raymond wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:51 am
Cv pan modules would work for sure but it would take quite a lot of work I think compared to LRMSMSLR to reach something. Of course there would be more options but way more work.
Depends what you're after but a 4R and a Bubblesound Pan would be 6hp total and would be all that's needed to get stereo movement happening. And just the Pan module alone is enough if using a CV that's modulating the BIA, which would make the panning match the BIA modulation. The plus side of this approach is it also allows for smooth panning effects by patching in an lfo or envelope.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by NaiveMelody » Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:06 am

tl3ss wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:14 pm
NaiveMelody wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:18 am
klstay wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:55 am
I have an ALM Boss Bow Two sitting next to a WORNG Sound Stage for things like this. Triggers advance to each output which is patched to where I want the voice also on that trigger to appear spectrum and spread wise.
I was wondering about doing something like that, so am really interested to hear your experience with it... does it switch between positions relatively gracefully or can it be quite glitchy at faster speeds? Which in itself might be cool
I’ve been doing this for awhile now. Very fun. Also fun to patch various outputs of a standard oscillator into the soundstage and then send an output to the SS and then into different places on the soundstage, and then using the onboard stereo VCA to make a cool stereo synth voice.
That sounds a ton of fun. If you're recording to you just take the direct out from Sound Stage then? I wondered whether I'd use Sound Stage as much as I record everything via an ES-9... seems like a ton of fun though

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by klstay » Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:48 am

My Sound Stage goes to either mono 2 & 3 or a stereo in on Vortices depending on if I am also doing crossfade and panning even after it as well as whether I wand that sound on the aux loop.

While Jumble Henge does fit in 8HP CV over output level is nice and especially over depth was a must-have for me.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by NaiveMelody » Mon May 03, 2021 3:11 pm

Parnelli wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:52 pm
Worng LRMSMSLR will do the trick if you have a hp filter to modulate the Side with. Sudio into L, S out to hp, hp filter out to S in, no resonance on the filter, fiddle with the frequency to get the separation you desire.
I picked up an LRMSMSLR and tried this... I can’t seem to get it to work. Either just in the L or multed to both there’s no audible separation. However there is if I put in another audio source to the R.

Am I doing something wrong or is that expected?

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by Parnelli » Mon May 03, 2021 4:50 pm

One-spring stereo reverb (mono
source):
This patch works with either one or
two mono signals. Patch signals to Left
and Right inputs, patch Mid output to a
spring reverb set 100% wet and then
the output of the spring to the Side
input. Take the stereo signal from the
Left and Right outputs for a super wide
stereo reverb, with the source signals
in the middle of the soundstage.


Out of the manual... it's with a reverb module instead of a high pass filter, but it's the same principle. There's a short thread on it here from someone trying to do the same thing basically:

viewtopic.php?t=212854

There's another thread here where the maker basically told how to make this work for mono to stereo expansion... I remember reading in a couple years back.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by Stab Frenzy » Mon May 03, 2021 7:38 pm

NaiveMelody wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:11 pm
Parnelli wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:52 pm
Worng LRMSMSLR will do the trick if you have a hp filter to modulate the Side with. Sudio into L, S out to hp, hp filter out to S in, no resonance on the filter, fiddle with the frequency to get the separation you desire.
I picked up an LRMSMSLR and tried this... I can’t seem to get it to work. Either just in the L or multed to both there’s no audible separation. However there is if I put in another audio source to the R.

Am I doing something wrong or is that expected?
If you mult a signal and patch it to both left and right you won't get a side signal, because the side is the difference between left and right.

This HPF patch should work if you patch a mono signal to L, take the S output through the filter and then patch it back to the S input. Try differing amounts of resonance, sweep through different frequencies and also try modulating the frequency to find an effect you like the sound of. You can also try other things like using distortion, wavefolding, amplitude modulation, or anything you like to get different effects, try a bunch of different things to see what you like.

Because phase is important for MS techniques and because filters by definition change the phase of signals some filters may give you different results to others, for example I know of one fairly popular filter where the output is polarity inverted compared to the input, so when you do this trick with it the LPF turns into a HPF.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by NaiveMelody » Tue May 04, 2021 6:47 am

Stab Frenzy wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 7:38 pm
NaiveMelody wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 3:11 pm
Parnelli wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:52 pm
Worng LRMSMSLR will do the trick if you have a hp filter to modulate the Side with. Sudio into L, S out to hp, hp filter out to S in, no resonance on the filter, fiddle with the frequency to get the separation you desire.
If you mult a signal and patch it to both left and right you won't get a side signal, because the side is the difference between left and right.

This HPF patch should work if you patch a mono signal to L, take the S output through the filter and then patch it back to the S input. Try differing amounts of resonance, sweep through different frequencies and also try modulating the frequency to find an effect you like the sound of. You can also try other things like using distortion, wavefolding, amplitude modulation, or anything you like to get different effects, try a bunch of different things to see what you like.

Because phase is important for MS techniques and because filters by definition change the phase of signals some filters may give you different results to others, for example I know of one fairly popular filter where the output is polarity inverted compared to the input, so when you do this trick with it the LPF turns into a HPF.
Parnelli wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:50 pm
Out of the manual... it's with a reverb module instead of a high pass filter, but it's the same principle.

Thanks very much for the detail both, and sorry for the relatively naive question.

Will give this another go tonight - could well be the filter I'm using.

When I have the LRMSMSLR doing it's thing, it's incredible :)

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by mosorensen » Tue May 04, 2021 7:02 am

Taking a step back, reading the thread, I cannot help thinking that it would be easier to just get a second drum module and pan them differently.

I understand the idea of using a switch into a Sound Stage (I have done all that myself) and using a CV controlled panner to place each hit in the stereo field, but these techniques are inherently limited. They can only play one sound at the time, and the requires pretty precise timing, especially with more advanced rhythms. Moreover, using a single sound module (BIA) requires more from the modulation to keep the rhythms interesting.

Depending on what you are trying to achieve, it may be a lot simpler and more flexible to just get a second drum module and pan them differently to get the spatial effect.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by tl3ss » Tue May 04, 2021 9:47 am

I agree, I can’t help but think of this thread as providing a solution and then trying to come up with a problem to solve with it, instead of the reverse.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by klstay » Tue May 04, 2021 10:14 am

I do not believe the original post was strictly about panning. (Would not be the first time I was wrong though...)
:hihi:
With the more "advanced" rhythm type modules sequencing parameters is at times as desirable as just triggers and some pan/xfade.

My impression from the OP was they would like to sequence a number of distinct "sounds" by patching different parameters to different CV; each triggered on selectable steps of a sequence. Then also place step outs at controllable places in the stereo (and possibly spectral) space of final out.

I did a VERY simple mashup with a single snare source switched on beats between LPGs each with the same trigger envelope. Throughout I moved the left to different left and middle inputs on a WORNG Sound Stage and brought it in for all beats or just alternate beats. Extreme panning to make it obvious what is going on. There is also a bit of offbeat snare parameter tweaking, but that is not changed/modulated at all and the envelope is also not changed/modulated at all - as stated very simple.
Simple Snare
simplesnare.mp3
(4.5 MiB) Not downloaded yet
A lot more per step parameter sound shaping and envelope modulation would require little additional effort/patching. With a BIA instead of a generic snare MUCH could be accomplished I think in a fairly exploratory/performative manner not so easily accessed with multiple percussion modules.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by NaiveMelody » Tue May 04, 2021 10:50 am

Thanks for everyone's comments!

mosorensen, t3lss I totally hear where you're coming from. I find myself with Eurorack too easily overcomplicating things that can potentially be solved in more direct ways.

In many respects that's one of the things I enjoy about Eurorack - the solutions can yield unusual and interesting results, different to what I'd get with (in this case) a specific drum machine with multiple outs for example.

[klstay] I think you've added a good layer to the definition of what I'm trying to achieve in a clearer way than I originally did, so thanks for that.

The example you've given sounds great and is similar to the sort of thing I'd love to achieve.

With the plethora of modulation options on the BIA, I think that'd yield some pretting amazing results.

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Re: Mono drum source (BIA) to stereo sound

Post by Stab Frenzy » Tue May 04, 2021 6:46 pm

mosorensen wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 7:02 am
Taking a step back, reading the thread, I cannot help thinking that it would be easier to just get a second drum module and pan them differently.
This may be true, apart from the fact that two mono voices don’t equal one stereo voice, but it’s much more interesting to discuss synthesis techniques that can be applied to a whole range of different situations than to just say buy more stuff.

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