Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Zymos »

Adze wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:57 am some of you will probably disagree.
I think most of us would agree with that! 8-)
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Exiannyc »

It is very good to have this cleared up.

I personally am someone who doesn't need a perfect saw wave. I don't bother with pitch tracking either. I am just looking for an interesting sound that I haven't heard before.

People have different priorities, but it's great that discussions like this help us figure out which gear is going to fit with our own priorities.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by otoskope »

This is a very interesting discussion. On the one hand, it is of course ridiculous to judge a whole format on such grounds, as the circuits inside a large number of euro modules are similar to those in 4U or 5U, and nobody could probably hear any quality difference in a blind listening test between formats. Euro is simply full of amazing circuits that sounds amazing, with lots of sonic depth, fantastic timbre and heaps of character. On the other hand, I understand exactly what you mean, if you think of timbre as an expanded concept of user experience. And I should clarify that I too come from more than two decades of using other formats (Wiard, Blacet, CGS/Serge, Buchla, Bugbrand and other bananafrac, etc, and still using them), but started a euro system on the side a few years ago to have access to more complex modules that are not available elsewhere.

You can look at timbre as an expanded concept, not just including the spectral and textural qualities of a sound (and their temporal development), but also including the feel of producing the sound, the experience of playing it (including the feel of the knobs, the jacks, etc), the associations and memories that are included in making them, their musical context, and even the gestural movements required to play it (sounds requiring related gestural movements, or emerging from similar objects/modules, or which relates to some similar musical memory could be (i.e., perceived to be) timbrally related if using this expanded concept of timbre, regardless of sonic similarity).

If you think of timbre like this, which we may do more than we are aware of, as we are affected by our experiences when evaluating what comes out of the speakers when we play, the experience of playing eurorack could sometimes be perceived as "shallow", "small", "flimsy", "lacking character", etc. It would not be detectable in a blind listening test, but since these experiences from interaction while playing potentially affects me as a player when I make music - as part of a musician-instrument ecosystem - it also affects what and how I play. Hence it implicitly makes a musical difference.

If you want to read more about this expanded concept of timbre and its implications for music-making, from a musician's perspective, I can recommend the artistic research doctoral thesis from 2020 by wonderful Berlin-based improviser Magda Mayas (of which I was the main supervisor, so yes I am biased). She's an experimental inside piano player, but it all applies to electronic musicianship too: https://www.researchcatalogue.net/view/382024/382025

Getting back to the Generate 3: Another interesting observation is that some people are interested in the sound - like looking for that perfect violin. Others are interested in variability, as in new instruments with new ways to control and play sound, or new ways of abusing a violin. Myself, I am certainly of the latter kind. From that perspective, regardless of what you think of the sonic timbre space of Generate3 (which is vast), it does indeed provide a unique parametrization of the timbre space, which simply cannot be found elsewhere. That is, it gives us new axes along which we can explore the sonic possibilities. The knobs and modulation inputs simply control different aspects of the sound than in most (or all) other oscillators. To me, that alone makes it super interesting as a tool for sonic exploration. And engineering-wise, I am still amazed that Joranalogue has been able to create such a novel design - I am still wondering how the circuits are even possible. Some serious analogue tricks going on inside.

To me, Joranalogue designs are very similar to Serge in their atomic design of interaction, control and patch-programmability (and I am not the first to make that comparison). I'm sure the circuits are very different to Serge, but the interaction design approach is somewhat similar. Focus is on variability and versatility. The modules are split up into basic functions, and you have to patch/modulate it to sound fat or dirty or deep, if that is what you want. Or weird or clean, if that is your preference. You can abuse this "violin" in so many ways. In the other end of the spectrum is, for example, to take another favorite brand of mine, AJH, who makes modules that have less parameters, but a special character already built-in - a Stradivarious of "violins" (or VCOs, or whatever kind of module you are talking about).

I regard Joranalogue (together with Frap Tools, AJH and a few others) as one of the most sophisticated and interesting of the current generation of analogue module designers. And of course it is very personal, but I find it quite a bit unfair to say that their modules lack character or depth - as the character and depth of the interaction potentials are simply both novel and vast.

All of this IMHO, of course.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Black_Materia »

Serge designs are very different, they strike a good balance between creative functionality and a great core sound.

Yes, the design of Generate 3 is quite forward-thinking and unique.
But unfortunately it really doesn't sound great.
It's inherent to the design, there's always this high frequency 'hair' in the top end, that i wish wasn't there. Filtering it out just isn't the same.

I'm planning to switch my Generate 3 out for an LA67 T-Zed. ,
I've realised i prefer phase modulation to through zero frequency, and the T-Zed sounds a lot better (and is a lot cheaper).

Generate 3 has a lot of other functions, but i have plenty of other modules that do those things.

Otoh, i just got an Orbit 3, love it. Wobbly LFO's, quasi-repeating random modulation, and the sync input is brilliant. Some very interesting audiorate modulations to explore with that.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by BaloErets »

I wonder if what some people relate to as the buzzy or the high frequency hair bothers young ears vs old ears. I was really intrigued by this dialog and tonight dialed in the best saw that I could with the G3, and compared it to the saw output of both my Dixie II+ and the SSF ZPO saw output. They all went from their individual output to the Mordax Data, then each output into it's own channel on the Sputnik Quad VCF/VCA. And then each output of the Quad to an ES-9.

Maybe my ears are just old, but other than amplitude, I don't hear that much of a difference. Lets say that unless I was using these oscillators for scientific purposes, then I would consider all 3 as very similar. Maybe it is simply my ears have gotten old (this isn't sarcasm, I mean it honestly).

The next evening I have free I'm going to try a 2nd time, but will go Directly from Oscillator to the ES-9, and use software to control the volume. I want to remove the Data and the Sputnik Quad from the signal chain before I feel I've made an proper assessment.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Adze »

Maybe other amazing Joranalogue modules that I have set a (too) high expectations. Morph 4, Orbit 3 and Compare 2 are unbelievably good modules, I couldn't imagine my Eurorack system without them. That's suppose why are we all in the modular game in the first place, you take what suits you best from many different brands. I am thinking about getting one more Morph 4 and one more Orbit 3, and I'll definitely keep my eye on future Joranalogue stuff, but G3 is a no for me.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Precarious »

otoskope wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:46 pm Getting back to the Generate 3: Another interesting observation is that some people are interested in the sound - like looking for that perfect violin. Others are interested in variability, as in new instruments with new ways to control and play sound, or new ways of abusing a violin. Myself, I am certainly of the latter kind. From that perspective, regardless of what you think of the sonic timbre space of Generate3 (which is vast), it does indeed provide a unique parametrization of the timbre space, which simply cannot be found elsewhere. That is, it gives us new axes along which we can explore the sonic possibilities. The knobs and modulation inputs simply control different aspects of the sound than in most (or all) other oscillators. To me, that alone makes it super interesting as a tool for sonic exploration. And engineering-wise, I am still amazed that Joranalogue has been able to create such a novel design - I am still wondering how the circuits are even possible. Some serious analogue tricks going on inside.
I couldn't agree more! :yay:

There is a wide selection of VCOs in euro format. I chose G3 because it can do so many things others can't, at least without additional modules, and it can do so many of these things at once. That presents opportunities for exploration and uniqueness at my fingertips without much forethought or effort. It inspires experimentation as a whim or methodical endeavor. And the beauty of modular is I can have other VCOs that have different essential qualities residing along side this odd beast. True, I have too many modules. I don't limit the size of my case so I need not make these hard decisions of what I truly need vs what is just plain fun! G3 always tempts me to go deeper and I love it for that.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by kesserich »

Precarious wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 8:49 am
otoskope wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 6:46 pm Getting back to the Generate 3: Another interesting observation is that some people are interested in the sound - like looking for that perfect violin. Others are interested in variability, as in new instruments with new ways to control and play sound, or new ways of abusing a violin. Myself, I am certainly of the latter kind. From that perspective, regardless of what you think of the sonic timbre space of Generate3 (which is vast), it does indeed provide a unique parametrization of the timbre space, which simply cannot be found elsewhere. That is, it gives us new axes along which we can explore the sonic possibilities. The knobs and modulation inputs simply control different aspects of the sound than in most (or all) other oscillators. To me, that alone makes it super interesting as a tool for sonic exploration. And engineering-wise, I am still amazed that Joranalogue has been able to create such a novel design - I am still wondering how the circuits are even possible. Some serious analogue tricks going on inside.
I couldn't agree more! :yay:

There is a wide selection of VCOs in euro format. I chose G3 because it can do so many things others can't, at least without additional modules, and it can do so many of these things at once. That presents opportunities for exploration and uniqueness at my fingertips without much forethought or effort. It inspires experimentation as a whim or methodical endeavor. And the beauty of modular is I can have other VCOs that have different essential qualities residing along side this odd beast. True, I have too many modules. I don't limit the size of my case so I need not make these hard decisions of what I truly need vs what is just plain fun! G3 always tempts me to go deeper and I love it for that.
Ditto for me as well. I have enough 'great' saw waves. These days i'm more interested in novel sounds.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by klstay »

G3 for me is about low and audio rate modulation and cross modulation; primarily with a filter 8 which is also used as a mod source more than as a filter. Some of the statements made by Adze as regards 5U I do agree with having left that format years ago and getting into eurorack only last year; particularly given the brands mentioned from both formats. (L-1 does not get nearly the "air time" here as it deserves IMHO for example)
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by joncharliefeathers »

Pinging the different outputs is a terrific set of features that consistently occupies my attention when putting a patch together. The G3 is an exceptional arsenal of sound within my system and a cornerstone device that compliments the signature of my style
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Del »

BaloErets wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:35 pm I wonder if what some people relate to as the buzzy or the high frequency hair bothers young ears vs old ears. I was really intrigued by this dialog and tonight dialed in the best saw that I could with the G3, and compared it to the saw output of both my Dixie II+ and the SSF ZPO saw output. They all went from their individual output to the Mordax Data, then each output into it's own channel on the Sputnik Quad VCF/VCA. And then each output of the Quad to an ES-9.

Maybe my ears are just old, but other than amplitude, I don't hear that much of a difference. Lets say that unless I was using these oscillators for scientific purposes, then I would consider all 3 as very similar. Maybe it is simply my ears have gotten old (this isn't sarcasm, I mean it honestly).
My ears are not really young anymore. I think the "buzziness" is pretty clear — far from cork-sniffing distinctions. It's fuzzy enough that it's even hard to tune. Here's a Tiptop / Buchla 258t saw and then the G3 even output.

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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by otoskope »

joncharliefeathers wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:53 pm Pinging the different outputs is a terrific set of features that consistently occupies my attention when putting a patch together. The G3 is an exceptional arsenal of sound within my system and a cornerstone device that compliments the signature of my style
Pinging the outputs of an oscillator? Please elaborate, as I am not familiar with that use of the word. :hmm: I've only seen it used for pinging inputs, usually on a filter, resonator or similar.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Zymos »

It was explained a few posts above- “outputs” may be confusing. You send voltage into the Even, Odd, Fund inputs. It acts as a VCA.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by BaloErets »

Del wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 6:41 pm
BaloErets wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:35 pm I wonder if what some people relate to as the buzzy or the high frequency hair bothers young ears vs old ears. I was really intrigued by this dialog and tonight dialed in the best saw that I could with the G3, and compared it to the saw output of both my Dixie II+ and the SSF ZPO saw output. They all went from their individual output to the Mordax Data, then each output into it's own channel on the Sputnik Quad VCF/VCA. And then each output of the Quad to an ES-9.

Maybe my ears are just old, but other than amplitude, I don't hear that much of a difference. Lets say that unless I was using these oscillators for scientific purposes, then I would consider all 3 as very similar. Maybe it is simply my ears have gotten old (this isn't sarcasm, I mean it honestly).
My ears are not really young anymore. I think the "buzziness" is pretty clear — far from cork-sniffing distinctions. It's fuzzy enough that it's even hard to tune. Here's a Tiptop / Buchla 258t saw and then the G3 even output.

I see. Perhaps I should clarify that I was using the Full output and sculpting the saw wave as described in the manual. Compared to the Dixie II+ and the ZPO, they all sound very similar to my ears. I fully agree the Even output does have a highend buzz to it.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Wubz »

Zymos wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 11:10 am
Adze wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:57 am some of you will probably disagree.
I think most of us would agree with that! 8-)
wrong :lol:
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Amyto »

People have said that a pair of G3's gives you a lot of unique possibilities beyond the traditional modulator/carrier setup.
Would anyone like to record a patch demonstrating this? I'm very curious to hear the special sounds you can get with two of these modules!
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by otoskope »

:) I'd be interested in that, too. All modules are better in pairs - it doesn't give double potential, but potential squared!
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Amyto »

I don't have the module, but just looking at it I have a few ideas for cross-patching. Maybe someone could try these out and share the sounds?

1)

Fund, Even, Odd outputs of the modulator to Fund, Even, Odd inputs of the carrier.
There's 6 unique routings for this (Fund->Fund, Fund->Even, ..., etc)
Bonus: Cross-modulate with the Fund, Even, Odd outputs of the carrier back into the modulator. Now there's 36 unique routings.

2)

Cross phase modulation. It mostly preserves the pitch, so what does this sound like?

3)

A hard-syncs B, B soft-syncs A.
Experiment with taking A or B as the carrier, experiment with different pitches.

4)

Carrier / Modulator with phase. But Modulator is AM'd by Carrier. Or FM'd... (which one?)

---

No idea if any of these will sound interesting, but may as well try and see.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by DonKartofflo »

mikelaranburu wrote: Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:32 am It's always "depth", "character" and "timbre" with you guys :goo:
Dont forget „warmth“ :lol:
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by bronzebygold »

Amyto wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:20 am People have said that a pair of G3's gives you a lot of unique possibilities beyond the traditional modulator/carrier setup.
Would anyone like to record a patch demonstrating this? I'm very curious to hear the special sounds you can get with two of these modules!
What about 3? :nana:

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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Precarious »

bronzebygold wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:00 am What about 3? :nana:
:hyper:
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by kugua »

bronzebygold wrote: Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:00 am
Amyto wrote: Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:20 am People have said that a pair of G3's gives you a lot of unique possibilities beyond the traditional modulator/carrier setup.
Would anyone like to record a patch demonstrating this? I'm very curious to hear the special sounds you can get with two of these modules!
What about 3? :nana:


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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Pagoda-100 »

Ima patch the requests above and some others. Will try to d it this eve or Sat.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by ee_ »

Got one of these over the weekend, and I'm really glad I didn't let the scattered talk of it sounding "sterile" or "harsh" or whatever else put me off. I've had a number of VCOs at this point and I simply have no idea what such people are talking about unless there was something wrong with theirs. It's probably my favorite VCO I've owned, with a wide range of available sounds and modulations. It's honestly just as fun to use as a Mindphaser or Furthrrr Generator were, if not more.

I particularly like the chime-like tones and deep Autechre-y kicks I can get out of it. But I've already heard silky saws, plasticky squares, rubbery sines, and other oddities emerge. Quite frankly I haven't even started into filtering and otherwise heavily processing it yet, it's so strong just on its own. Great module.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by InteBra »

Picked it up yesterday. Little note in box says "rev C". (I think, can't check that at the moment. Or was it rev 3?). Has anything specific changed from start?
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