Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Snufflepuff »

modwiggler wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 10:52 am
Snufflepuff wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 5:25 pm Do I just throw out the concept of modulation depth as a shaper of timbre? (I've been using a 1:1 ratio between modulator and carrier so far).
I think so, yes. Modulation depth has not been an important parameter in my experience with TZFM. The main parameter for timbre shaping is carrier frequency.

In fact, it is likely you want to stick an envelope or an LFO into the V/O (or exp FM since it can be attenuated) of G3 when using it for TZFM.

With TZFM there is no need to keep a fixed rate between modulator and carrier. But you probably want to sync the carrier to the modulator to keep things stable.

A simple TZFM patch with G3 would be:
  • AC on (down) and bias off (up)
  • Sine or tri out from modulator to the ∅-fm input (modulation depth to full). Mult the same output to the 'flip' input.
  • Mult the pitch sequence to V/O on modulator and carrier.
  • Send the core out from G3 to the VCA for the most clean output.
  • Set the coarse knob on G3 fairly high (try sweeping it to find your preferred sweet spots). If you go to high or too low the signal fades.
  • Modulate tibre using exp FM input using LFO or envelope.
The result should be a quite clean melodic sound and a stable patch where your can use the coarse knob on G3 to play with timbre.

(This also completely ignores the odd/even functionality of G3, as well as the phase modulation. But there is no imperative to use every feature all the time!)
Thank you for the help. I'm curious, if you hard sync the oscillators, are you reducing the ability of carrier frequency alterations to shape timbre? Because once you hard sync the G3, its fundamental pitch is fixed and playing with the frequency knobs just changes the harmonics.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by modwiggler »

Snufflepuff wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 12:52 pm Thank you for the help. I'm curious, if you hard sync the oscillators, are you reducing the ability of carrier frequency alterations to shape timbre? Because once you hard sync the G3, its fundamental pitch is fixed and playing with the frequency knobs just changes the harmonics.

The fundamental pitch is already decided by the modulator when doing symmetric TZFM. So, syncing should not fundamentally hamper the ability to shape timbre, only make it more stable: A hard sync would make sure that the 0hz point also corresponds to 0V output. A soft sync has a similar stabilising effect, but sounds a bit gentler.

In my head TZFM works like this (I wish I could make a nice animation, because it is quite graphic. Alas…):

Imagine the wave of the carrier as a static graph (say a sine wave) which one can follow along the x-axis giving different y-values as a result. Imagine you start in origo. The amplitude of the modulator determines the speed you are driving: As the modulator wave rises you follow the carrier signal forward, waving up and down, faster and faster.

When the modulator reaches a peak and starts going down you continue forward on the carrier wave but slower and slower. When the modulator reaches 0V you stop and turn back. Now the modulator is negative, and you start moving back towards the origin on the carrier wave. If the modulator is symmetric around 0V you will continue back as you came, bobbing up and down until returning completely to the origin.

Then the story repeats, going back and forth on the initial segment of the carrier wave, not going forward towards infinity as you would with only positive pitch.

The result is a wave with the same fundamental pitch as the modulator (it decides how you go back and forth), but folded along the carrier wave.

So, I think hard syncing will just reset the carrier wave on each zero-crossing of the modulator, this prevents drift due to slight asymmetries, so that each repetition of the waveform looks the same. Somehow soft syncing also achieves this kind of stabilisation. Without sync you will get a pulsation, which can be nice as well, but not quite as "clean".
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by ldd23 »

I was playing with BRiES's PWM patch last night (tune harmonics to square wave, patch core to reset) and it made for some pretty good sounds, but I think it no longer tracks v/o when patched like this. It seemed extremely sensitive to the v/o input. I figured the self-patching would cut the cycle time by 1/4 or so, so it would be a few octaves higher, but I'm not sure that's all it did.

The phase modulation is also extremely sensitive like this. I had to triple-attenuate my modulator to find a pleasant range.

Can anybody confirm this behavior?
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by nocontact »

yes I usually put phase to around 50% and use external vca as well since the range is quiet huge. turning phase knob to the left yields in noisier, more unpure sounds, which I love. Id really like to hear a phase mod/tzfm crossmod demo between two gen 3s.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by otoskope »

I did this recording last night with the Generate 3 as the only sound source, exploring the through zero FM possibilities. It is modulated by a sine from Filter 8. Thats all (plus Happy Nerding FX Aid reverb). It was my first ever try with this module, as I just got it. I have tried through zero FM also with Frap Tools Brenso and Bugbrand TZFM VCO, but the implementation in the Generate 3 is different, and much more raw, allowing for crazy control around the zero point. I really like that!

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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Precarious »

otoskope wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:20 am I did this recording last night with the Generate 3 as the only sound source, exploring the through zero FM possibilities. It is modulated by a sine from Filter 8. Thats all (plus Happy Nerding FX Aid reverb). It was my first ever try with this module, as I just got it. I have tried through zero FM also with Frap Tools Brenso and Bugbrand TZFM VCO, but the implementation in the Generate 3 is different, and much more raw, allowing for crazy control around the zero point. I really like that!
Beautiful!
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by otoskope »

Precarious wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 9:48 am Beautiful!
Thanks!
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Adze »

is it possible to get a "perfect" sawtooth out of generate 3? It seems that there is always some kind of light modulation going on... Sawtooth is just not steady, if you know what i mean. I am a long long time user and used to working with complex systems and modules, but I just can't get a simple and steady sawtooth out of this thing. What am I doing wrong? What would be suggested knob position for a sawtooth (I mean long, perfect and steady sawtooth). It's nice to have all these modulation capabilities, but, you know, I need that perfect sawtooth...
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Wubz »

Adze wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:42 pm is it possible to get a "perfect" sawtooth out of generate 3? It seems that there is always some kind of light modulation going on... Sawtooth is just not steady, if you know what i mean. I am a long long time user and used to working with complex systems and modules, but I just can't get a simple and steady sawtooth out of this thing. What am I doing wrong? What would be suggested knob position for a sawtooth (I mean long, perfect and steady sawtooth). It's nice to have all these modulation capabilities, but, you know, I need that perfect sawtooth...
You won’t get a perfect sine wave or square wave out of it either.
I just don’t think that’s it’s intended use tbh.
That used to annoy me too but I have other oscillators with perfect standard waves. This one is still one of my faves.
I gave up expecting it to be “normal” and like it way more since.
Last edited by Wubz on Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by otoskope »

It's described in the manual how to set it for saw wave and other standard waves, but I haven't tried it out with a scope, tbh. Also, that's not why I got it...
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by plragde »

Adze wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:42 pm It seems that there is always some kind of light modulation going on... Sawtooth is just not steady, if you know what i mean.
It's inherently noisy. The cleanest outputs are Core and Fundamental but even those are not pure sines. The Full output moves and buzzes. It's kind of the price you pay for the feature set, and part of its character. If you want a clean saw, there are cheaper oscillators with fewer features that can deliver that.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by BaloErets »

Adze wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:42 pm is it possible to get a "perfect" sawtooth out of generate 3? It seems that there is always some kind of light modulation going on... Sawtooth is just not steady, if you know what i mean. I am a long long time user and used to working with complex systems and modules, but I just can't get a simple and steady sawtooth out of this thing. What am I doing wrong? What would be suggested knob position for a sawtooth (I mean long, perfect and steady sawtooth). It's nice to have all these modulation capabilities, but, you know, I need that perfect sawtooth...
I'm not sure the extent to what you mean by "perfect" and how realistic that expectation is from an analog module. Perfect waveforms only exist in the digital domain due to noise and poor linearity of analog.

The answer is no, full stop. Even if we imagine a perfect sawtooth exists in the analog world, you would need to dial in the Fundamental at 50%, and both Odd and Even at 40%. This values have to be precise and exact. Not 50.00000001% or 49.99999999%. To get all 3 values spot on is unrealistic. Although virtually not impossible, it's highly improbable and extremely unlikely that anyone would get so lucky to get all 3 values spot on to create this perfect sawtooth.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Adze »

I am not talking about the shape of the wave, which looks nice, but this slight changes which are probably caused by phase modulation. It's always there somehow, in really small amount, but it is there. To some of the users this will not be an issue (some will not even notice it), but I find it really annoying. I have two, unfortunately, and it's the same situation on both. I really like Joranalogue stuff, I have many Joranalogue modules, but I am not sure that I'll keep G3 in my system. Maybe I'll keep one...
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by informationsource »

Adze wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:13 am I am not talking about the shape of the wave, which looks nice, but this slight changes which are probably caused by phase modulation. It's always there somehow, in really small amount, but it is there.
Does this happen even if you plug a dummy cable in to the phase input? That should remove the offset and disable the effect of the knob, if that's what's causing the issue.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Adze »

informationsource wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:16 am
Adze wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:13 am I am not talking about the shape of the wave, which looks nice, but this slight changes which are probably caused by phase modulation. It's always there somehow, in really small amount, but it is there.
Does this happen even if you plug a dummy cable in to the phase input? That should remove the offset and disable the effect of the knob, if that's what's causing the issue.
Yes, still there. This oscillator is good for one thing, and that is metallic sounds in TZ mode, for everything else there are much better solutions - even in Eurorack format - which is not my favourite. I sold my Verbos oscillators to get these two (together with Fold 6), but I must say that I regret for doing so.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Del »

Adze wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:42 pm is it possible to get a "perfect" sawtooth out of generate 3? It seems that there is always some kind of light modulation going on... Sawtooth is just not steady, if you know what i mean. I am a long long time user and used to working with complex systems and modules, but I just can't get a simple and steady sawtooth out of this thing. What am I doing wrong? What would be suggested knob position for a sawtooth (I mean long, perfect and steady sawtooth). It's nice to have all these modulation capabilities, but, you know, I need that perfect sawtooth...
I totally hear you. The saw from mine is extremely buzzy as well. I cannot use it for what I call “regular” oscillator duties. It sounds as if there are two tones clashing. It has bugged me since getting the module. I have spoken to Joran about this and he was kind enough to ship the module back to him for a once over, but it seems that’s just the way it is. It’s very cool for other uses – try sending pings through it! – but a smooth bass line oscillator it is definitely not. You should know, going in, that it’s maybe not quite as flexible as it seems.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Snufflepuff »

Del wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:03 pm
Adze wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:42 pm is it possible to get a "perfect" sawtooth out of generate 3? It seems that there is always some kind of light modulation going on... Sawtooth is just not steady, if you know what i mean. I am a long long time user and used to working with complex systems and modules, but I just can't get a simple and steady sawtooth out of this thing. What am I doing wrong? What would be suggested knob position for a sawtooth (I mean long, perfect and steady sawtooth). It's nice to have all these modulation capabilities, but, you know, I need that perfect sawtooth...
I totally hear you. The saw from mine is extremely buzzy as well. I cannot use it for what I call “regular” oscillator duties. It sounds as if there are two tones clashing. It has bugged me since getting the module. I have spoken to Joran about this and he was kind enough to ship the module back to him for a once over, but it seems that’s just the way it is. It’s very cool for other uses – try sending pings through it! – but a smooth bass line oscillator it is definitely not. You should know, going in, that it’s maybe not quite as flexible as it seems.
I'm familiar with pinging resonant filters, but how do you ping an oscillator?
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by informationsource »

Adze wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:30 pm
informationsource wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:16 am
Adze wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:13 am I am not talking about the shape of the wave, which looks nice, but this slight changes which are probably caused by phase modulation. It's always there somehow, in really small amount, but it is there.
Does this happen even if you plug a dummy cable in to the phase input? That should remove the offset and disable the effect of the knob, if that's what's causing the issue.
Yes, still there. This oscillator is good for one thing, and that is metallic sounds in TZ mode, for everything else there are much better solutions - even in Eurorack format - which is not my favourite. I sold my Verbos oscillators to get these two (together with Fold 6), but I must say that I regret for doing so.
I sold my one when I got a Mangrove, so I can't say I entirely disagree (I still have Brenso for TZFM). I still think it's a well-built VCO with great tracking and a unique set of features - the BRiES extensive user guide is required reading, I think. It certainly has a lot of settings that aren't sweet spots.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Jazz-Circuit »

Snufflepuff wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:02 pm
Del wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:03 pm
Adze wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:42 pm is it possible to get a "perfect" sawtooth out of generate 3? It seems that there is always some kind of light modulation going on... Sawtooth is just not steady, if you know what i mean. I am a long long time user and used to working with complex systems and modules, but I just can't get a simple and steady sawtooth out of this thing. What am I doing wrong? What would be suggested knob position for a sawtooth (I mean long, perfect and steady sawtooth). It's nice to have all these modulation capabilities, but, you know, I need that perfect sawtooth...
I totally hear you. The saw from mine is extremely buzzy as well. I cannot use it for what I call “regular” oscillator duties. It sounds as if there are two tones clashing. It has bugged me since getting the module. I have spoken to Joran about this and he was kind enough to ship the module back to him for a once over, but it seems that’s just the way it is. It’s very cool for other uses – try sending pings through it! – but a smooth bass line oscillator it is definitely not. You should know, going in, that it’s maybe not quite as flexible as it seems.
I'm familiar with pinging resonant filters, but how do you ping an oscillator?
I think he is talking about the inputs for fund/even/odd. They work like a vca.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by BaloErets »

Adze wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:30 pm This oscillator is good for one thing, and that is metallic sounds in TZ mode, for everything else there are much better solutions - even in Eurorack format - which is not my favourite.
That is a pretty harsh statement, which I personally find to be unfounded.
In my experience, it has been somewhat of the opposite. While I get the focus is on "TZ everything", there is so so so so many more subtle varieties that exist with subtle modulation, and having access to both the separate outputs can even bring some pseudo-polyphony if you modulate your sources right.

Case in point; (Assuming you have a mixer) Start by monitoring the full output, and dial in the closest sawtooth you can get. Now Add the Odd Output to your mix. Send a CV signal to the Odd input similar to something you would send to a Pulse Width Modulation input. Now send the Even output through something that can add a nice chorus effect to it and add that signal to your mixer. Send your mixer output into a nice lush, spacey reverb.

After playing with that patch, tell me again how the G3 is only good at TZ metallic sounds. I double dare you :foul:
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by bronzebygold »

Adze wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 1:30 pm Yes, still there. This oscillator is good for one thing, and that is metallic sounds in TZ mode, for everything else there are much better solutions - even in Eurorack format - which is not my favourite. I sold my Verbos oscillators to get these two (together with Fold 6), but I must say that I regret for doing so.
I have three Generate 3s in my rack. They are the primary oscillator core of my entire system and a critical component of how I currently approach synthesis. I really don't find this statement to be true at all. G3 can sound like many things. It's all just in how you patch it. I've had Verbos and Cwejman oscillators in my rack in the past, and I find G3 can be just as warm with the right modulation.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by BaloErets »

I've had good times and achieved great sounds using the benefits that the TZ architecture allows on the G3, but have also had so many moments of lushful modulation. Jittery modulations into the Phase input that doesn't necessarily put your melody out of tune, but bring enough tonal variance where every note doesn't sound the same. Again mixing all the outputs and sending them through various signal chains offers a wealth of options. Add that you can use each of the cv inputs as a VCA, there is a lot of ground to tread.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Adze »

Del wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:03 pm
Adze wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 3:42 pm is it possible to get a "perfect" sawtooth out of generate 3? It seems that there is always some kind of light modulation going on... Sawtooth is just not steady, if you know what i mean. I am a long long time user and used to working with complex systems and modules, but I just can't get a simple and steady sawtooth out of this thing. What am I doing wrong? What would be suggested knob position for a sawtooth (I mean long, perfect and steady sawtooth). It's nice to have all these modulation capabilities, but, you know, I need that perfect sawtooth...
I totally hear you. The saw from mine is extremely buzzy as well. I cannot use it for what I call “regular” oscillator duties. It sounds as if there are two tones clashing. It has bugged me since getting the module. I have spoken to Joran about this and he was kind enough to ship the module back to him for a once over, but it seems that’s just the way it is. It’s very cool for other uses – try sending pings through it! – but a smooth bass line oscillator it is definitely not. You should know, going in, that it’s maybe not quite as flexible as it seems.
Yes, that's exactly what I am thinking! There are many better options for most of the sounds.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Adze »

So, to make a long story short... After 15 years in 5U world I just wanted to have something portable and nice sounding. Working with Modcan B, Macbeth MK1, MOTM, Synth-Werk, Mos-Lab, and especially Hordijk (which is my favourite and main system) I'am used to high standards. I owned/own at least couple hundreds of 5U modules, and I believe I can say I have some experience. So far Eurorack format is really not doing it for me, even with lower expectations than I have for my other systems. I love Eurorack effects, sequencers, modulation options, but oscillators and filters are just not my cup of tea. There are some exceptions like CMS 1047, which is a great filter, and l-1 quad vca, which is an outstanding module. Lack of depth, lack of character and poor timbre would be my description for most of the stuff I tried in Eurorack world - not much, around 50-60 modules. Generate 3 is just one of those modules that I just can't find use for, every other oscillator I have just sounds better to my ears. This is, of course, very subjective and personal view and some of you will probably disagree. This all started with my simple question - can Generate 3 have a normal sounding saw wave, and the answer is no. If you think it can then you should check your ears.
Thank you all for your thoughts and answers, I really appreciate it.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by mikelaranburu »

It's always "depth", "character" and "timbre" with you guys :goo:
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