Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

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Dragonaut
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Dragonaut »

funksy wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:45 pm I'm super confused about the result I'm getting trying to use the TZFM on my Generate 3.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vNrG25wMRR2cPdz36

In the video, the AC switch is down, and the Bias switch is up. 0FM knob is fully clockwise. A sine wave from a self oscillating filter is in the input. The resulting sound is not at all what I expect from watching other videos. Additionally, if I plug a dummy cable into the input with the same setup, it stops oscillating. Thoughts?

Just because I've seen it suggested before, I moved the module from a TipTop Mantis to an Intellijel Pallete and didn't notice any different behavior.
I can never remember quite how to operate the dang thing myself to be honest. I’ve kept the manual close by a few times but the combination of the bias and AC switches always throws me off.

Try tuning up the coarse knob when you’re in TZFM mode. That might get you closer to what you’re looking for. The DivKid video is also very helpful. For me the phase modulation is so convenient it’s the main reason I hold onto it. Sounds pretty darn good.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by plragde »

funksy wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:45 pm I'm super confused about the result I'm getting trying to use the TZFM on my Generate 3.
Use the Fund output (cleaner), crank the Coarse knob more to the right, and tune it until the sound is more pleasing. Then either put the same V/oct into G3 and your modulator, or sync G3 to your modulator with the Flip input.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by funksy »

Turning up the coarse knob just makes the jumps in sound happen more frequently... And they still exist at the Fund output, though obviously not as harsh sounding. I wasn't applying a v/Oct to anything in the video I posted. Literally just the Generate 3 being modulated by the filter and through the scope to the output.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by modwiggler »

I wasn't applying a v/Oct to anything in the video I posted. Literally just the Generate 3 being modulated by the filter and through the scope to the out.
Someone with more experience can probably diagnose what is happening in your vid. But my understanding is:

TZFM sounds a lot better when syncing g3 to the modulator signal by patching the same signal into either hard or flip. Then you want the frequency of g3 to be higher than the modulator. There's is a range where it sounds musical which moves with the modulator frequency.

EDIT: Also, no sound when an empty modulator is patched in would be expected since the 5v normal voltage goes away. This also happens when engaging the AC I think. With TZFM the frequency of the carrier (g3 in this case) oscillates around 0hz.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by joranalogue »

funksy wrote: Fri Feb 11, 2022 10:45 pm I'm super confused about the result I'm getting trying to use the TZFM on my Generate 3.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/vNrG25wMRR2cPdz36

In the video, the AC switch is down, and the Bias switch is up. 0FM knob is fully clockwise. A sine wave from a self oscillating filter is in the input. The resulting sound is not at all what I expect from watching other videos. Additionally, if I plug a dummy cable into the input with the same setup, it stops oscillating. Thoughts?

Just because I've seen it suggested before, I moved the module from a TipTop Mantis to an Intellijel Pallete and didn't notice any different behavior.
What sound are you expecting? For more 'melodic' FM, you'll want to enable the bias switch. Symmetric TZFM, as you are using now, is more suited to sound design/percussive 'effect' sounds, as the perceived pitch depends on the modulation depth.

The oscillation stops because you are interrupting the internal +5 V normal to the TZFM socket by plugging in a cable. A detailed explanation of the TZFM controls can be found in the user manual, here: https://joranalogue.com/generate-3/manual
Joranalogue Audio Design
21st Century Analogue Synthesis—Made in Belgium

https://joranalogue.com/
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by modwiggler »

joranalogue wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 2:40 am Symmetric TZFM, as you are using now, is more suited to sound design/percussive 'effect' sounds, as the perceived pitch depends on the modulation depth.
Really? I am getting quite nice melodic stuff out of my G3* in symmetric TZFM. Maybe it is "more suited" for percussive sounds, but I definitely get really useful lead type sounds of symmetric TZFM with a lot of interesting timbres. I usually modulate the frequency of the carrier, i.e. G3, instead of the amount of modulation, though.


(*) I realise who I am replying to here: Thanks for making such awesome modules!
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by joranalogue »

modwiggler wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:09 amReally? I am getting quite nice melodic stuff out of my G3* in symmetric TZFM. Maybe it is "more suited" for percussive sounds, but I definitely get really useful lead type sounds of symmetric TZFM with a lot of interesting timbres. I usually modulate the frequency of the carrier, i.e. G3, instead of the amount of modulation, though.


(*) I realise who I am replying to here: Thanks for making such awesome modules!
Of course, that is totally valid, but perhaps not the easiest way to get useful sounds for someone just encountering the TZFM concept.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by modwiggler »

I agree that it’s not something you stumble into. Took me more than a month to work out. But I think the problem is that TZFM is explained starting from normal FM around a fundamental frequency, but it is actually a very different sound and concept.

Yes, flipping the bias switch will “fix” the problem in the sense that it becomes melodic. But it will not bring them any closer to understanding symmetric TZFM. It will just take them back to something more like normal FM world.

So it depends what the person asking wants, I guess.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by funksy »

First off, the dummy patch cable comment was silly and I totally understand what is happening there.
joranalogue wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 2:40 am What sound are you expecting? For more 'melodic' FM, you'll want to enable the bias switch. Symmetric TZFM, as you are using now, is more suited to sound design/percussive 'effect' sounds, as the perceived pitch depends on the modulation depth.

The oscillation stops because you are interrupting the internal +5 V normal to the TZFM socket by plugging in a cable. A detailed explanation of the TZFM controls can be found in the user manual, here: https://joranalogue.com/generate-3/manual
As far as what sound I was expecting, I wasn't looking for a specific timbre. I'm just confused why I seemed to get bursts of sound with periods of silence (maybe not silence, but very low). I'm guessing it's because the frequency of my carrier (G3) was low, relative to the frequency of my modulator (oscillating filter)? I had watched the DivKid and BriEs videos previously and had read the manual. Watching and reading them again after reading the replies to my comment and the tips given was useful.
modwiggler wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:44 am I agree that it’s not something you stumble into. Took me more than a month to work out. But I think the problem is that TZFM is explained starting from normal FM around a fundamental frequency, but it is actually a very different sound and concept.
The Instruo vid will definitely be reviewed several times, so thanks for the link to that @modwiggler. I don't think the concept itself is so complicated. An LFO into the G3 produces basically exactly what I would expect. The transition to something audio rate and what sounds that produces is what I'm grappling with.

Thanks for responses.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by BRiES »

The first year (!) I owned a Generate 3 I just avoided the TZFM all together because I didn't quite understand why I was getting these bursts of sound with the periodic silences in between. I've found that turning up the frequency of the carrier quite a lot (I think it's mentioned somewhere in this thread) and using a low modulator makes more sense if you want to get more stable sounds that you can use for 'normal' VCO stuff. TZFM is more of a ringmod type thing and regular FM would be more like AM (not exactly true, and certainly not sound-wise, but the comparison kinda works when you think of what the trough-zero FM is doing to the carrier: inverting it through zero).

The BIAS switch adds 5V of offset to the modulator (which is added to what the position of the FM knob is). That's why 'most of the times' flipping it into the on position makes everything sound more like regular FM (at least when using a modulator that oscillates between -5V and +5V). Activating the DC filter (AC switch down) filters out any DC offset in your modulator but also removes the 5V normalisation for the FM knob (that's DC too, so it get's filtered out as well) - and it's primarly this last feature that made everything really confusing for me. There's a few hours of video about all of this on my channel as well.

One of the cool things to do (in my opinion) is adding an offset to your modulator yourself and modulating this offset. You can do this with a 'modulator' going into the FUND., EVEN, or ODD level inputs as well to make the sound jump around between AM and RM.

I've tried a few VCOs that have TZFM and none of them made any sense when I actually tried to understand what was happening. Either the TZFM isn't completely linear (which sounds wicked but as a user it's hard to explain why it's happening). With some VCOs it doesn't look like TZFM at all on the scope or have a DC filter which you can't turn off (which isn't a bad thing in day to day patching but when you're learning what it's all about it's a little bit confusing).

Generate 3 is a full on VCO laboratory, everything is there, there's so much to discover and learn and I think it's ok if it sometimes doesn't make sense. I love it dearly for how precise and capable it is (if that wasn't already clear) so I'm extremely biased.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Pagoda-100 »

I have to agree with this statement. I have a Mordax data that typically does not fit in the case but G3 (and Orbit 3) always make me reach for the scope. Tons of crazy intricate sounds in them that always have me wondering what they look like! VCO laboratory is a fitting description indeed. :tu:
BRiES wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:05 pm Generate 3 is a full on VCO laboratory, everything is there, there's so much to discover and learn and I think it's ok if it sometimes doesn't make sense. I love it dearly for how precise and capable it is (if that wasn't already clear) so I'm extremely biased.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Sweetfiltersweep »

Generate 3 as modulator here:

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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by thetwlo »

Sweetfiltersweep wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:34 am Generate 3 as modulator here:

Wow! gorgeous sounds!! Love the G3!
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by funksy »

Sweetfiltersweep wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:34 am Generate 3 as modulator here:
I really need to get out of the mindset of VCO's only being for sound, especially with one that has such a variety of related but different outputs. Nice use.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Snufflepuff »

modwiggler wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 3:09 am
joranalogue wrote: Sat Feb 12, 2022 2:40 am Symmetric TZFM, as you are using now, is more suited to sound design/percussive 'effect' sounds, as the perceived pitch depends on the modulation depth.
Really? I am getting quite nice melodic stuff out of my G3* in symmetric TZFM. Maybe it is "more suited" for percussive sounds, but I definitely get really useful lead type sounds of symmetric TZFM with a lot of interesting timbres. I usually modulate the frequency of the carrier, i.e. G3, instead of the amount of modulation, though.


(*) I realise who I am replying to here: Thanks for making such awesome modules!
This is great, would love to see a video! Interesting timbres are my thing.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by lisa »

Got mine a week ago. Putting quite a bit of effort into constraining my use of every parameter to not overdo it and make it sound like crap. :hyper:
Modular mayhem! And a sweet melody. :crash:

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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Snufflepuff »

I went back to Generate after a long time away, promising myself I'd finally figure out its TZFM abilities, but I'm still stumped. After reading the manual and Simon's user guide, I understand why the oscillator needs the 0FM knob turned to max as a default configuration, but when I try to use TZFM:

1. The only mod depth that gives acceptable results is maximum. In normal linear FM, the full range of modulation depth gives useable results, with the timbre getting progressively brighter.
2. In fact, decreasing the modulation depth from full makes the carrier pitch fall.
3. The resulting timbre is not rich. It's not as bright as 75-100% linear FM depth on my Cs-L. It's not as bright as the oscillator's full depth phase modulation, or what I've heard from Neoni in VCV Rack.

Do I just throw out the concept of modulation depth as a shaper of timbre? (I've been using a 1:1 ratio between modulator and carrier so far).

I'm not bashing the oscillator, just wondering how to get useable results out of it. Also a bit puzzled why, if modulation depth is not a useful control, that the manual didn't say so. I read somewhere that with Neoni, paradoxically, you're supposed to modulate the carrier frequency to get timbral shifts, unless I'm remembering incorrectly. Thank you for any tips!
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by plragde »

Here is what works for me. G3 coarse freq relatively high, modulator freq relatively low. V/oct into modulator, sine or triangle from modulator into G3 øFM jack (knob fully CW). Fundamental knob fully CW, signal taken from Fundamental jack. Sometimes I mult the modulator V/oct and put it into G3, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I patch Core to Phase on G3 and then vary the timbre with the Phase knob. Sometimes I patch square or saw from the modulator to G3 Flip or Reset. Sometimes I put a slow LFO into linear FM with knob just a little to one side or the other of 12:00, to vary the timbre. Sometimes I use the Full output, and mix in just a touch of Odd or Even.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by moustachioed »

Snufflepuff wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 5:25 pm I read somewhere that with Neoni, paradoxically, you're supposed to modulate the carrier frequency to get timbral shifts, unless I'm remembering incorrectly.
That's correct, with TZFM the modulator is responsible for pitch, while the carrier frequency shifts timbre. In the Neoni video manual there is an in-depth explanation of that:


As plragde already said:
plragde wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 5:56 pm G3 coarse freq relatively high, modulator freq relatively low.
is a good starting point for stable TZFM with the G3, where you can also play with the modulation depth in a meaningful way.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Wavtekt »

I think one of the strength of G3 is its exp FM input takes DC offset and tracks v/oct, so ...

You don't need to move coarse and fine frequency knob. You can just feed DC offset to exp FM input, and retune your oscillator with exp FM knob.

The resulting oscillator frequency will be v/oct input +/- exp FM input.

This function is super handy for TZFM and probably not a lot of people realized that ...
Last edited by Wavtekt on Tue May 03, 2022 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by moustachioed »

Wavtekt wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:39 am I think one of the strength of G3 is its exp FM input takes DC offset, so ...

You don't need to move coarse and fine frequency knob. You can just feed DC offset to exp FM input, and retune your oscillator with exp FM knob.

The resulting oscillator frequency will be v/oct input +/- exp FM input.

This function is super handy for TZFM and probably not a lot of people realized that ...
Oh, I did not know that, that really is super handy! Thanks!
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Wubz »

Wavtekt wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:39 am I think one of the strength of G3 is its exp FM input takes DC offset, so ...

You don't need to move coarse and fine frequency knob. You can just feed DC offset to exp FM input, and retune your oscillator with exp FM knob.

The resulting oscillator frequency will be v/oct input +/- exp FM input.

This function is super handy for TZFM and probably not a lot of people realized that ...
Why is that handy? genuine question.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Wavtekt »

Wubz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:58 am
Wavtekt wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:39 am I think one of the strength of G3 is its exp FM input takes DC offset, so ...

You don't need to move coarse and fine frequency knob. You can just feed DC offset to exp FM input, and retune your oscillator with exp FM knob.

The resulting oscillator frequency will be v/oct input +/- exp FM input.

This function is super handy for TZFM and probably not a lot of people realized that ...
Why is that handy? genuine question.
Exp FM input tracks v/oct, so you can use the exp FM input to tune the C:M ratio (Carrier:Modulator ratio) directly. You don't need to retune your oscillator using the coarse / fine frequency knob if you decided not to TZFM. Some fun usage examples of the exp FM input will be sequential switching between two voltages. You can tune G3 to different to C:M ratios and achieve different timbres.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by Wubz »

Wavtekt wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 2:07 am
Wubz wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:58 am
Wavtekt wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 1:39 am I think one of the strength of G3 is its exp FM input takes DC offset, so ...

You don't need to move coarse and fine frequency knob. You can just feed DC offset to exp FM input, and retune your oscillator with exp FM knob.

The resulting oscillator frequency will be v/oct input +/- exp FM input.

This function is super handy for TZFM and probably not a lot of people realized that ...
Why is that handy? genuine question.
Exp FM input tracks v/oct, so you can use the exp FM input to tune the C:M ratio (Carrier:Modulator ratio) directly. You don't need to retune your oscillator using the coarse / fine frequency knob if you decided not to TZFM. Some fun usage examples of the exp FM input will be sequential switching between two voltages. You can tune G3 to different to C:M ratios and achieve different timbres.
Thanks for your input. Can I ask........
EXP FM tracks v/oct if at fully CW (+ 1 v/oct) or CCW (-1 v/oct). Right?
I'm maybe confused about what you mean here. In this use case you describe, are we still sending pitch info to the v/oct input and using the exp fm input as an offset? What is the benefit to using the exp fm knob to retune the oscillator rather than the tuning knob/s? CV control I guess? Are you desribing sending it two pich sequences, one for v/oct and one for C:M ratio? If you are sending it voltage to offset the C:M ratio then wouldnt the exp knob have to be left fuly CW or CCW to get the v/oct response? Does the C:M ratio control need to be v/oct?
Are you desribing sending it two pitch sequences, one for v/oct and one for C:M ratio?
sorry, maybe I'm totally missing the point of what this technique is achieving and why its better. I like to make things far mroe complicated than necessary.
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Re: Joranalogue GENERATE 3 - Through-Zero Multiphonic Signal Generator

Post by modwiggler »

Snufflepuff wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 5:25 pm Do I just throw out the concept of modulation depth as a shaper of timbre? (I've been using a 1:1 ratio between modulator and carrier so far).
I think so, yes. Modulation depth has not been an important parameter in my experience with TZFM. The main parameter for timbre shaping is carrier frequency.

In fact, it is likely you want to stick an envelope or an LFO into the V/O (or exp FM since it can be attenuated) of G3 when using it for TZFM.

With TZFM there is no need to keep a fixed rate between modulator and carrier. But you probably want to sync the carrier to the modulator to keep things stable.

A simple TZFM patch with G3 would be:
  • AC on (down) and bias off (up)
  • Sine or tri out from modulator to the ∅-fm input (modulation depth to full). Mult the same output to the 'flip' input.
  • Mult the pitch sequence to V/O on modulator and carrier.
  • Send the core out from G3 to the VCA for the most clean output.
  • Set the coarse knob on G3 fairly high (try sweeping it to find your preferred sweet spots). If you go to high or too low the signal fades.
  • Modulate tibre using exp FM input using LFO or envelope.
The result should be a quite clean melodic sound and a stable patch where your can use the coarse knob on G3 to play with timbre.

(This also completely ignores the odd/even functionality of G3, as well as the phase modulation. But there is no imperative to use every feature all the time!)
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