Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

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OHEXOH
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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by OHEXOH » Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:31 pm

I discovered a new way to use Zadar today and that is to use it as a Sample + Hold. Here's how...

Set a channel to wave shape LO. Set the time to a long value (at least longer than the anticipated time between the need to sample & hold). Turn the Level for that channel all the way to 0v. Go into the Assign menu and assign that channels input to Level. Set that to 100.

It's then the simple case of sending CV into the Assign in and the trigger into the trigger in. It almost tracks v/OCT!!

Not bad if you're in a pinch for a quick and dirty sample & hold.
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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by joskery » Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:48 pm

You, sir, are astounding. Thanks for the tip!

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mosorensen » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:39 pm

I have a problem with triggering backwards envelopes (flipping them backwards by pressing the A button).

To recap, when I play the envelope forward, everything works as expected. I trigger Zadar with a gate (not a trigger) from a clock divider (Integra Solum), and as soon as Zadar receives the rising edge from the gate signal, the envelope starts as expected. Digital and analog retriggering also works as expected. Fine.

However, when I flip the envelope backwards, Zadar freezes when the gate is high, and it only starts (and restarts) the envelope on the falling edge of the gate, which is very different from its behavior when playing the envelope forward.

Am I missing something? Is this just my module that has this problem, is it a know problem, can others confirm this behavior?


EDIT: I think I figured it out. I think when I flip it backwards, the sustain point also flips from the end to the beginning, and it sustains (at the very beginning of the envelope) as long as the gate is high. If I dial the sustain point back to the end after I flip it, it works as expected (at least in my one minute of testing). I still think this is a (minor) bug, but at least there seems to be a workaround.
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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Tonefloat01 » Sat Aug 22, 2020 12:34 am

Well after sitting on the sidelines for quite a while I finally ordered a Zadar & the NIN expander.
Looking forward to this module especially after reviewing the 270 envelopes pdf file on the XAOC site.
Seems like a perfect module to breath some more life and animation into my rig.
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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Ultrabluetech » Sat Aug 22, 2020 4:40 pm

just got zadar with pamelas workout yesterday, wow...i feel lucky getting these two early in my eurorack life..setting the modifier rate on pam to sync the timing on the zadar is so cool how well they work together..im sure theres a lot of modules either one of these works well with but this is like peanut butter and jelly

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Argüelles » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:42 am

Does anyone else has issues with Zadar fully closing a Tallin VCA? It's something I've struggled with for some time and for the most part is never critical, but when working with some rich sounds it becomes more audible and annoying, it just won't fully close the VCA. The Tallin is at the 11 o' clock position, is not like it's super open or anything. When I use simple gates the VCA closes perfectly so is not it's fault I think.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by loorenz » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:22 am

Argüelles wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:42 am
Does anyone else has issues with Zadar fully closing a Tallin VCA? It's something I've struggled with for some time and for the most part is never critical, but when working with some rich sounds it becomes more audible and annoying, it just won't fully close the VCA. The Tallin is at the 11 o' clock position, is not like it's super open or anything. When I use simple gates the VCA closes perfectly so is not it's fault I think.
Have you tried to attenuate Zadar envelope to 8v instead of 10v, that what I do and Tallin closes… I have never noticed any bleed.

In Tallin manual it's recommended to use 8v envelopes:
It is optimally suited to 8V envelopes in the central (12 o’clock) position,

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Argüelles » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:53 am

loorenz wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:22 am


Have you tried to attenuate Zadar envelope to 8v instead of 10v, that what I do and Tallin closes… I have never noticed any bleed.

In Tallin manual it's recommended to use 8v envelopes:
Would this work though? Even if it's a 10v envelope, it's 0-10v so it should close the VCA when at 0v.
I'll give it a try when I get home...

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by lisa » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:56 am

Or just set Tallin to ten instead of eleven?
I made this techno remix of an ambient/downtempo track. 🧉


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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by rbhansen » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:06 pm

Argüelles wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:53 am
loorenz wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:22 am


Have you tried to attenuate Zadar envelope to 8v instead of 10v, that what I do and Tallin closes… I have never noticed any bleed.

In Tallin manual it's recommended to use 8v envelopes:
Would this work though? Even if it's a 10v envelope, it's 0-10v so it should close the VCA when at 0v.
I'll give it a try when I get home...
FWIW, tried this tonight with my Zadar and Tallin and get the following behavior with Zadar on shape L0, 10V out:
* w/ exponential input, VCA fully closes with knob at any setting...even in boost zone
* w/ linear input, VCA fully closes with knob only in the non-boosted zone (left of 12 o'clock)

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Argüelles » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:33 pm

rbhansen wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:06 pm

FWIW, tried this tonight with my Zadar and Tallin and get the following behavior with Zadar on shape L0, 10V out:
* w/ exponential input, VCA fully closes with knob at any setting...even in boost zone
* w/ linear input, VCA fully closes with knob only in the non-boosted zone (left of 12 o'clock)
Thanks for making that test!
Ok so I just tried the same thing and compared to just closing the VCA with the gate instead of Zadar, so I no longer think the Zadar is the issue here, since the results were the same, still some leak. However now I manually closed the VCA and I can still hear sound going through. I took the output from Tallin into the Erica Synths Graphic VCO 1v/oct input (since it's calibration tool is the only way I have at hand for measuring voltage) and it reads 0.013V.
That sounds low to me for practical purposes. Perhaps it's an acceptable tolerance? but I can definitely hear that leak.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by autopoiesis » Sun Sep 27, 2020 4:32 pm

OHEXOH wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 1:31 pm
I discovered a new way to use Zadar today and that is to use it as a Sample + Hold. Here's how...

Set a channel to wave shape LO. Set the time to a long value (at least longer than the anticipated time between the need to sample & hold). Turn the Level for that channel all the way to 0v. Go into the Assign menu and assign that channels input to Level. Set that to 100.

It's then the simple case of sending CV into the Assign in and the trigger into the trigger in. It almost tracks v/OCT!!

Not bad if you're in a pinch for a quick and dirty sample & hold.
this doesn't work for me. the CV assigned to Level isn't sampled at each trigger and then held until the next trigger; it continuously modulates the amplitude of this pulse-shaped envelope, basically mirroring the CV patched into Level. I wonder how you're getting this to work.

I have done a S&H patch similar to this with Ornament and Crime's Piqued (also a quad envelope generator) app, but the only reason it works there is there is a "sampled amplitude" menu option.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by pablowdadon » Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:30 am

Argüelles wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:33 pm
rbhansen wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:06 pm

FWIW, tried this tonight with my Zadar and Tallin and get the following behavior with Zadar on shape L0, 10V out:
* w/ exponential input, VCA fully closes with knob at any setting...even in boost zone
* w/ linear input, VCA fully closes with knob only in the non-boosted zone (left of 12 o'clock)
Thanks for making that test!
Ok so I just tried the same thing and compared to just closing the VCA with the gate instead of Zadar, so I no longer think the Zadar is the issue here, since the results were the same, still some leak. However now I manually closed the VCA and I can still hear sound going through. I took the output from Tallin into the Erica Synths Graphic VCO 1v/oct input (since it's calibration tool is the only way I have at hand for measuring voltage) and it reads 0.013V.
That sounds low to me for practical purposes. Perhaps it's an acceptable tolerance? but I can definitely hear that leak.
Tallin is quite sensitive as VCA: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=180503&p=3320422&h ... n#p3320422

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by DoverBeach » Wed Sep 30, 2020 8:36 am

Argüelles wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:42 am
Does anyone else has issues with Zadar fully closing a Tallin VCA? It's something I've struggled with for some time and for the most part is never critical, but when working with some rich sounds it becomes more audible and annoying, it just won't fully close the VCA. The Tallin is at the 11 o' clock position, is not like it's super open or anything. When I use simple gates the VCA closes perfectly so is not it's fault I think.
Same here, I'm not able to fully close my intellijel quad vca even if I attenuate the Zadar signal. Any suggestion?

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Funky40 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:19 am

i used my zadar yesterday,
the encoders suck in the mean time big big times more.
what a big FUCK that all is !

PISSED customer !

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by autopoiesis » Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:29 am

yeah, it's funny how they seem to get worse even when you haven't touched them in weeks, months. oxidation must be the issue, as has been suggested. I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that the encoder shafts are anomalously long and are quite exposed underneath the knobs?

maybe Xaoc should ship Zadar with a set of airtight, suction-cup Encoder Condoms to seal over them when the module is not in use, thereby preserving these fragile components from the harsh elements of nature.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by yrn1 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:26 pm

Even with the “less sensitive encoder firmware”, mine is becoming extremely annoying. Only usable as a set (and curse) and forget module now.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by dooj88 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:05 pm

anyone tried oxidizer spray on theirs to see if it clears up the issue with the encoder? or is that stupid and only for pots?

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by scragz » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:55 pm

yrn1 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:26 pm
Even with the “less sensitive encoder firmware”, mine is becoming extremely annoying. Only usable as a set (and curse) and forget module now.
I'm resigned to replacing mine with a Quadrax but I don't feel comfortable selling a busted module. Was hoping the other firmware would at least make it good enough to sell with a warning so kinda bummed to hear that.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:01 pm

Is XAOC unwilling to service the module?

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by autopoiesis » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:06 pm

Xaoc is certainly willing to service the module. I sent both of the two Zadars that I have owned over to Xaoc for encoder replacements, and they kindly helped out. the problem is: within 3 months, the very same encoders that were replaced started acting up again. so I don't know what the long-term solution is. the new firmware with more aggressive debouncing might contribute to a worse mechanical deterioration of the encoders, as it requires more spins to traverse the range of values, and I am not a fan of how it feels to change the Time parameter in this firmware. (on the other hand, it seems that how much movement the encoders experience doesn't seem to be related to whether they develop the "value skipping" problem, as I and others have noticed that the issue manifests after months of disuse.)

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:11 pm

Perhaps the solution for scragz, then, is to return his for repair, then immediately sell the fixed unit off when it returns?

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by autopoiesis » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:23 pm

seems to be the solution for scragz, but not sure about the next owner :)

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by scragz » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:30 pm

Haha yeah I feel bad selling someone a cursed module. I also thought their warranty was only a year but maybe they are more generous on these since it's a known issue.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Funky40 » Wed Sep 30, 2020 7:24 pm

yrn1 wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:26 pm
Only usable as a set (and curse) and forget module now.
thats how i used my Zadar most of the time since i have it. anyway since i have the expander.



so i my case, can it be that i don´t touch a encoder over months, or just very barely.
( its absolutely NOT related with any encoder problem)
its not that my Zadar would not see any use, but its allways the same sort of thing.
Then every few months i go for some other exploration..........but now is my Zadar "worn out".
yeah, just by seeing some air surrounding my zadar.........its not "worn out" by me, using the encoders.


after all this time, and what i saw and read here, would i say:
there is honestly only one solution available, if Xaoc would be so honest to confess their fail:
bring a mkII, make it with optical encoders..........forget about the mkI.
i mean, if there is just one EE pro in that Team, would they have had to know about the sensibility of that situation:
Parameter acceleration vs. encoder (-problems)


yeah, as is, is the module not re-sellable.
it would be scamming that next dude if i sold it, .....no other than that.


yes, i´d buy a mkII *, ................* i save you on my next comment behind that...........

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