Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

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aber
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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by aber » Thu Oct 01, 2020 12:49 am

I've been waiting for months to buy a Zadar and when I was about to order it I started reading all this about the problems. I ask them sincerely. Is it worth buying this module? will it fail yes or yes in the future?

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by yrn1 » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:05 am

Knowing what I know about mine, I wouldn’t buy it again. Shame though, cause the functionality is really great. Just the encoders make it useless.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by megarat » Thu Oct 01, 2020 1:39 am

So far it doesn’t seem that the problems are inevitable. Is it really a matter of time until they start to go bad? I’ve had mine for 9-12 months and it’s still working great, and others here have testified that their Zadars are still problem-free after two or more years.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by MossGarden » Thu Oct 01, 2020 4:12 am

scragz wrote:
Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:30 pm
Haha yeah I feel bad selling someone a cursed module. I also thought their warranty was only a year but maybe they are more generous on these since it's a known issue.
I've owned my Zadar since the first batch back in 2018, so well out of warranty and now have the erratic encoder behaviour. I've just shipped my unit to Xaoc, they said they would sort it.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Qiqi » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:42 am

lisa wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:48 pm
I wonder how common the encoder problem actually is. A few people has reported issues here but I'm guessing that thousands of units have been sold so the ratio isn't necessarily very high. For what it's worth I've had mine for 20 months and I have no issues at all with the encoder.
I recently decided to get a Zadar, a bit hesitantly after reading about the encoder problems in the last pages of this thread. Just wanted to add that mine works perfectly well (for now, bought new) and really breathes live into my VCO's and filters. So much so that I'm considering buying a second one (that would mean only Zadar envelopes for my whole system). Works great for regular envelopes as well by the way.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by dooj88 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:42 am

Qiqi wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:42 am
lisa wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:48 pm
I wonder how common the encoder problem actually is. A few people has reported issues here but I'm guessing that thousands of units have been sold so the ratio isn't necessarily very high. For what it's worth I've had mine for 20 months and I have no issues at all with the encoder.
I recently decided to get a Zadar, a bit hesitantly after reading about the encoder problems in the last pages of this thread. Just wanted to add that mine works perfectly well (for now, bought new) and really breathes live into my VCO's and filters. So much so that I'm considering buying a second one (that would mean only Zadar envelopes for my whole system). Works great for regular envelopes as well by the way.
that's funny. i really wanted one but decided against it due to the volume of reports from people with broken encoders. it would be nice if xaoc acknowledged it with more than a firmware update - perhaps a hardware revision. for now i'm using my e352 in one shot sample play mode for wavetable envelopes.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Scott » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:35 pm

My issue, which is not that big of a deal, may fall under "Value Skipping." When I advance the time, it will go forward and then jump back to some previous reading: 512, 600, 380, 382, etc. I've tried going slowly and I've tried just spinning through. Same result. Frustrating but not the end of the world for me.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Kattefjaes » Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:38 pm

Scott wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:35 pm
My issue, which is not that big of a deal, may fall under "Value Skipping." When I advance the time, it will go forward and then jump back to some previous reading: 512, 600, 380, 382, etc. I've tried going slowly and I've tried just spinning through. Same result. Frustrating but not the end of the world for me.
That sounds infuriating, it'd ruin the mood somewhat. I'm in the middle of looking for more interesting envelope options, but this would drive me nuts.

Leaning towards just using a Quadra+expander and having nothing with any menus, weird key combos, firmware etc. and being better about remembering to use Maths for more than lazy offsets/attenuvertion meantime.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by autopoiesis » Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:03 pm

Scott wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:35 pm
My issue, which is not that big of a deal, may fall under "Value Skipping." When I advance the time, it will go forward and then jump back to some previous reading: 512, 600, 380, 382, etc. I've tried going slowly and I've tried just spinning through. Same result. Frustrating but not the end of the world for me.
yeah, sorry to hear that - it's exactly the issue that we've been talking about.

before you send the module for servicing, try the 2.0.2 firmware on http://xaocdevices.com/main/zadar/ which reduces the acceleration detection sensitivity and should prevent the skipping from happening, at some cost to your speed in navigating the parameters' ranges. if you're happy with it, good. the servicing might not do very much, as I've had a freshly replaced encoder go skippy after a few months. there's an issue that doesn't scale here.

I too hope for a Zadar MkII. it's too brilliant to not have a long-term future in my system, but not in this incarnation

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Scott » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:09 pm

autopoiesis wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:03 pm
Scott wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:35 pm
My issue, which is not that big of a deal, may fall under "Value Skipping." When I advance the time, it will go forward and then jump back to some previous reading: 512, 600, 380, 382, etc. I've tried going slowly and I've tried just spinning through. Same result. Frustrating but not the end of the world for me.
yeah, sorry to hear that - it's exactly the issue that we've been talking about.

before you send the module for servicing, try the 2.0.2 firmware on http://xaocdevices.com/main/zadar/ which reduces the acceleration detection sensitivity and should prevent the skipping from happening, at some cost to your speed in navigating the parameters' ranges. if you're happy with it, good. the servicing might not do very much, as I've had a freshly replaced encoder go skippy after a few months. there's an issue that doesn't scale here.

I too hope for a Zadar MkII. it's too brilliant to not have a long-term future in my system, but not in this incarnation
Cool. Thanks. Here little firmware.....come here little firmware......

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Scott » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:11 pm

Kattefjaes wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:38 pm
Scott wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:35 pm
My issue, which is not that big of a deal, may fall under "Value Skipping." When I advance the time, it will go forward and then jump back to some previous reading: 512, 600, 380, 382, etc. I've tried going slowly and I've tried just spinning through. Same result. Frustrating but not the end of the world for me.
That sounds infuriating, it'd ruin the mood somewhat. I'm in the middle of looking for more interesting envelope options, but this would drive me nuts.

Leaning towards just using a Quadra+expander and having nothing with any menus, weird key combos, firmware etc. and being better about remembering to use Maths for more than lazy offsets/attenuvertion meantime.
Can't speak to the Quadra, but people do love it. Maths is great, of course. I have two of them. Never leave home without them!

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Kattefjaes » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:28 pm

Scott wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:11 pm
Can't speak to the Quadra, but people do love it. Maths is great, of course. I have two of them. Never leave home without them!
Possibly a little late for buying advice, both are mainstays of my rack 8-)

The situation was that I was thinking of something more elaborate, did some window shopping (as you do) and liked the look of the features of this. However, having surveyed the landscape, I may just retreat to what I have, pick up a cheap used Quadra expander and find space to cram it in.

It's not the worst feeling, oddly- to realise you're not GASsy after all. Just throwing the expander on to make the Quadra's envelopes CV-able is probably more than fine, as it's a nice uncluttered envelope generator otherwise.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mvdirty » Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:31 pm

I must admit that I’m failing to understand how Zadar and Quadra(x) could even be in the running against one another; they’re just so different. Is it perhaps certain specific envelopes of the former versus the burst function of the latter? If not that, and rather just that both are quad modules, then there are plenty of other quad envelopes one could consider as well, no?

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by autopoiesis » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:51 pm

they're very different but I assume they get compared regularly (alongside Stages and Quadigy and a couple others) because they're the most HP-efficient path to having lots of voltage-controllable envelopes with flexible curve shaping and without cramped ergonomics. there are other advantages to dual or quad EGs, too, like trigger normalizations and function chaining options, which Zadar and Quadrax both have.

I went from having miscellaneous analog envelope generators, to two Zadars, to a Zadar + a Quadrax, and now I'm considering just having two Quadraxes or a Quadrax + Stages. go figure I guess!

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Qiqi » Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:24 pm

autopoiesis wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:51 pm
they're very different but I assume they get compared regularly (alongside Stages and Quadigy and a couple others) because they're the most HP-efficient path to having lots of voltage-controllable envelopes with flexible curve shaping and without cramped ergonomics. there are other advantages to dual or quad EGs, too, like trigger normalizations and function chaining options, which Zadar and Quadrax both have.
One important difference for me is that the Zadar supports saving and recalling envelopes. I think only the Quadigy can do that as well in a small quad-envelope package? Opens up a lot of doors for live performance for me.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by dooj88 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:41 am

autopoiesis wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:51 pm
they're very different but I assume they get compared regularly (alongside Stages and Quadigy and a couple others) because they're the most HP-efficient path to having lots of voltage-controllable envelopes with flexible curve shaping and without cramped ergonomics. there are other advantages to dual or quad EGs, too, like trigger normalizations and function chaining options, which Zadar and Quadrax both have.

I went from having miscellaneous analog envelope generators, to two Zadars, to a Zadar + a Quadrax, and now I'm considering just having two Quadraxes or a Quadrax + Stages. go figure I guess!
yeah, i'm not sure either. i think the closest thing to zadar out there right now is kermit mk3

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Kattefjaes » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:58 am

mvdirty wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 7:31 pm
I must admit that I’m failing to understand
Clearly. I

It's not hard, "considered upgrade path, upgrade path has massive gotchas, cancel upgrade, add CV-ability to what you already have, be happy". The part where an equivalence was claimed is all in your head ;)

(Incidentally, this is a really useful thread. The honestly of other posters, who probably could do with recouping the cost of these modules, has helped in dodging a bullet.)

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mvdirty » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:46 am

autopoiesis wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:51 pm
they're very different but I assume they get compared regularly (alongside Stages and Quadigy and a couple others) because they're the most HP-efficient path to having lots of voltage-controllable envelopes with flexible curve shaping and without cramped ergonomics. there are other advantages to dual or quad EGs, too, like trigger normalizations and function chaining options, which Zadar and Quadrax both have.
Those aspects definitely resonate with me also, and I’ve been leaning towards both Stages and Quadigy (as current examples, among others) as future additions for much the same reasoning.
autopoiesis wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:51 pm
I went from having miscellaneous analog envelope generators, to two Zadars, to a Zadar + a Quadrax, and now I'm considering just having two Quadraxes or a Quadrax + Stages. go figure I guess!
I hear ya! With respect to envelopes I am still in the “expansion” stage, as it were, and will be for a while as I explore variations and see what gels for me. If it ends up like some other functions have then I’d not be surprised if I end up with a small mix that includes a couple or few lower-channel-count more specialized EGs and some higher-density workhorses ala these various quad modules. It’ll be interesting seeing how that mix shakes out over time.
Last edited by mvdirty on Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mvdirty » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:49 am

Qiqi wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:24 pm
One important difference for me is that the Zadar supports saving and recalling envelopes. I think only the Quadigy can do that as well in a small quad-envelope package? Opens up a lot of doors for live performance for me.
I noticed and appreciated the preset functionality in the Zadar manual but did not spot CV control over preset recall.

Would I be correct to assume that you’re fitting this into your performances as a manual action? Or is there a CV control option I’ve missed?

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by d_imil » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:53 am

Are the "bad" encoders still present in new Zadars or is this only on older modules out in the wild? I'm really considering the Zadar for the future but keep seeing ones go up for sale that "have the bad encoders".

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mvdirty » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:55 am

On the topic of the encoders:

I do wonder what the incidence rate is overall, as a percentage of shipped units, and what the mean time to failure works out to. It may be the case that we only hear about a vocal minority experiencing failures or it may actually be that the majority (or at least an outsized minority) of units encounter trouble but that most don’t bother to wander into this and/or other forums to discuss it. Who knows.

To the Xaoc folks in the audience, I think that the community would really appreciate more openness and detail regarding the issue, even if the numbers are worse than people might hope to see, especially if accompanied by more detail regarding support for customers of the affected revisions and more still if accompanied by some plans for improving it in the future.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Kattefjaes » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:56 am

d_imil wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:53 am
Are the "bad" encoders still present in new Zadars or is this only on older modules out in the wild? I'm really considering the Zadar for the future but keep seeing ones go up for sale that "have the bad encoders".
People upthread have even sent in faulty modules and had them back with encoders that worked for a bit and failed in exactly the same way- not sure they've actually solved this one at all yet.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by mvdirty » Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:59 am

d_imil wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:53 am
Are the "bad" encoders still present in new Zadars or is this only on older modules out in the wild? I'm really considering the Zadar for the future but keep seeing ones go up for sale that "have the bad encoders".
Hard to say without more stats from Xaoc but I must admit that this would be a module I’m likely to buy new from a local vendor, even if perhaps at slightly greater cost, rather than used and/or from far away. The support/replacement convenience would outweigh, I figure.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by scragz » Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:25 am

The solution is a redesign with optical encoders. As has been discussed these are not a drop-in replacement and would require a Zadar2.

FWIW all my IME modules have had encoders that skip like this too and they don't even have the fancy pants acceleration algorithm. My o_C and ES modules don't skip. Not sure if Bitbox has optical encoders, they do feel different.

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Re: Xaoc Zadar, Quadruple Envelope Generator + Nin expander

Post by Tomek Mirt » Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:44 pm

Most of the problems with faulty encoders in Zadar arise from mechanical problems, we are solving this with some additional washers. Also we've changed supplier for the forthcoming batches. I know it looks like plague, but the problem is with just small percent of all Zadars we've sold. Optical encoders are bulky and very expensive, so it isn't solution. Probably no one in euro world uses them. In my whole studio equipment there is mounted only one in Eventide H3000. If you have any problems with your Zadar please instal new firmware with better filtering and improved acceleration and if it doesn't help contact with our support and we'll replacing encoders and add washer if it is necessary to prevent further problems.

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