NLC Triple Sloth

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NeolithicElectrophones
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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by NeolithicElectrophones » Sun Sep 20, 2020 2:01 pm

Triple is three with outputs in the ranges of fast, medium slow. Sloth DK is VERY slow, think many hours to days for big changes to occur. If you're asking about waveform differences or cv directionality, they're all chaotic chua circuits, meaning they hover between two strange attractors.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Ultrabluetech » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:06 pm

thats sort of what i figured..basically dk is so slow someone as impatient as me would probably end up turning the knob at some point before it makes any noticeable changes ..

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by NeolithicElectrophones » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:19 pm

Its application would seem to be sound installations with a multi-day timeframe. Or big cap bragging rights.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Ultrabluetech » Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:23 pm

Would pair really nice with that John cage organ playing for hundreds of years, read how it changes chords like once or twice a decade

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Peng33 » Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:40 pm

Ultrabluetech wrote:
Sun Sep 20, 2020 3:23 pm
Would pair really nice with that John cage organ playing for hundreds of years, read how it changes chords like once or twice a decade
Exactly what I was thinking.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Ultrabluetech » Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:33 am

Would be cool to hear faster version of whole finished song, I dont think I'll be alive by then

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Elahrairah » Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:35 am

You dont need to leave it run for days to get a result. The one that takes hours to do a full cycle still have some shift every minute. It's good to patch through a mixer into a CV input you're using for other things. Think making your filter open a little more at the beginning of a song vs at the end. It's primarily driven by some envelope but modified slightly chaotically so you get stronger or weaker impulses across a 10 minute performance. You dont need the full days long cycle for that.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Peng33 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:50 pm

Hey, so a guy was seemingly downsizing and had put a bunch of his stuff on auction on ebay, and the auctions ended in a chunk last night and in a chunk this afternoon. I lucked out and scooped up a 4MS Quad Pingable LFO and a 4MS Quad Clock Distributor for less than $300 for the pair.

So the LFO has the capability to go as slow as one cycle every 71 minutes, which is fully reachable via the clock distributor, which has 4 clock dividers, with each going down to /32, and which can stack. I have had my eye on the Elby Designs Chaotica for a bit now, which, like the Triple Sloth, has two "strange attractors" that the circuit cycles around, and has a CV rate input.

So depending on how slow it is able to go, I am wondering if pairing these two 4MS modules with the Chaotica might negate the need/want for a Triple Sloth, with the caveat that I think the Chaotica can only output one modulation at a time and not three.
Last edited by Peng33 on Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Elahrairah » Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:17 pm

Triple sloth has eleven outputs. And you will need to chain the whole QCD to get a seriously slow pulse. It’s kind of wasteful. QCD is better off doing quick things.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Peng33 » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:06 pm

Elahrairah wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:17 pm
Triple sloth has eleven outputs. And you will need to chain the whole QCD to get a seriously slow pulse. It’s kind of wasteful. QCD is better off doing quick things.
https://elby-designs.com/contents/en-us ... otica.html

It actually has three outputs, and although I know one of the selling points of the Sloth modules is that they kind of do whatever they want (hell, that seems to be NLC's design philosophy en toto), and as appealing as that is to me (and it is, believe me), having CV control over 4 of the Chaotica's parameters seems like it might be useful to reign in the chaos a bit.

I think a video that I saw was using the 4MS Rotating Clock Divider to ping the LFO down to the slowest possible rate (the 71 minutes), and it only took two /32 outputs to get there, and seemingly this info came from 4MS itself. Plus you can use stack cables to "reuse" those clock divisions.

Why is it better doing quick things? For drones or slight variations, I would think that the clock divisions would work wonderfully. If you are making BPM driven music, I can see the multipliers being more useful, however.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by ploubus » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:58 am

I built one one of these recently and encountered no problems except with the inertia section. Below is the X output graph I managed to record with a software scope. Unfortunately I don't have access to a proper oscilloscope. The X output jumps between -10 V and +11 V, the Y output moves between -/+0.0006 V, the Z output between -0.0060 V and +0.05 V on my multimeter.
► Show Spoiler
I replaced some of the resistors and capacitors of the inertia circuit according to the diagram in the build/bom document but nothing has changed so far. Both Torpor and Apathy seem to work fine. What am I missing?

Edit September 28th:
I ordered the wrong resistor for R8, 68m Ohm rather than 68M Ohm. Now waiting for the right one to arrive; that should solve it.
Last edited by ploubus on Mon Sep 28, 2020 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by andrewF » Sun Sep 27, 2020 12:42 am

ploubus wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:58 am
I built one one of these recently and encountered no problems except with the inertia section. Below is the X output graph I managed to record with a software scope. Unfortunately I don't have access to a proper oscilloscope. The X output jumps between -10 V and +11 V, the Y output moves between -/+0.0006 V, the Z output between -0.0060 V and +0.05 V on my multimeter.
► Show Spoiler
I replaced some of the resistors and capacitors of the inertia circuit according to the diagram in the build/bom document but nothing has changed so far. Both Torpor and Apathy seem to work fine. What am I missing?
Could you post some clear clos-up pics of the Inertia section please, or email/pm them to me if you prefer?

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by pelang » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:52 am

just arrived today:
IMG_5057.JPG

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by huffnPuff » Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:31 pm

What amplitude are you seeing from the x outputs? Mine tops at about +/-1.5v or so, often staying well below these numbers.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by scragz » Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:17 pm

huffnPuff wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:31 pm
What amplitude are you seeing from the x outputs? Mine tops at about +/-1.5v or so, often staying well below these numbers.
Usually starts at like +/- 0.5 then up to 1, 1.5, 2, sometimes up to +/- 3 right before Y does a zero crossing. It really helps to see it plotted on an XY scope with a long time; it's doing two lopsided elliptical orbits -- one above 0v Y and one below -- so X doesn't move nearly as much.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by huffnPuff » Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:14 pm

scragz wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 1:17 pm
huffnPuff wrote:
Fri Oct 02, 2020 12:31 pm
What amplitude are you seeing from the x outputs? Mine tops at about +/-1.5v or so, often staying well below these numbers.
Usually starts at like +/- 0.5 then up to 1, 1.5, 2, sometimes up to +/- 3 right before Y does a zero crossing. It really helps to see it plotted on an XY scope with a long time; it's doing two lopsided elliptical orbits -- one above 0v Y and one below -- so X doesn't move nearly as much.
Thanks!
Yes, the x output is lower than the y output, and does not change much with the transition from one attractor to the other. I was thinking mine could be particularly weak for some reason but I don't think there's much to it.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Midiot » Sat Oct 10, 2020 2:43 am

NLC Triple sloth from a SynthCube kit.....
It was only missing a 10ohm resistor, but I had an extra laying about.
One night build... (3-4 hours) for an intermediate builder.
20201010_000731[1].jpg
20201010_000456[1].jpg
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(type of music I make.... drone atmospheres, deep late-night beats.)

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by Midiot » Sat Oct 10, 2020 3:13 am

Note.... red stripe is "UP" on the modules I show/talk about..
Usually, Red stripe is down.
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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by megarat » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:43 am

Greetings. I have a question about the "rectified" outputs on the Triple Sloth. I've seen the derivation of these two signals defined as:

out + = VApathy +VInertia - VTorpor (If greater than 0, otherwise 0)

out - = VApathy +VInertia - VTorpor (If less than 0, otherwise 0)

My question: does the rectification happen after adding/subtracting the different signals together, or before?

I ask because on my Triple Sloth, the rectified outputs don't always provide a voltage that is exclusively either positive or negative. The positive output will generally produce a positive voltage, but it occasionally swings down into the negative range for a bit. Similarly the negative output mostly stays negative, but it occasionally swings up into the positive range for a bit. Is this normal?

If the rectification happens after the arithmetic, then the above shouldn't happen, but if the voltages are rectified prior to the arithmetic, then I could see how this would be expected. Or perhaps something altogether different is going on. Any illumination would be appreciated.

(I suppose I have one more question, but it's minor and just to satiate my curiosity, so I'll put it in parentheses: when doing the arithmetic for the rectified outputs, which voltages are applied from each channel? X? Y? Z? Something else?)

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by NiteEagle » Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:44 am

megarat wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:43 am

out + = VApathy +VInertia - VTorpor (If greater than 0, otherwise 0)

out - = VApathy +VInertia - VTorpor (If less than 0, otherwise 0)

My question: does the rectification happen after adding/subtracting the different signals together, or before?
The math is correct.

The "z" outputs are used. From the build guide, "The three Z outputs are also fed into a Difference Rectifier"

If my circuit analysis skill are up to the challenge... ;-)

The diodes are in the feedback part of the op amp circuit so rectification would be applied to the mixed signal.
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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by megarat » Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:22 pm

NiteEagle wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 10:44 am
The math is correct.

The "z" outputs are used. From the build guide, "The three Z outputs are also fed into a Difference Rectifier"

If my circuit analysis skill are up to the challenge... ;-)

The diodes are in the feedback part of the op amp circuit so rectification would be applied to the mixed signal.
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond on the holiday. Pardon my electronic naïveté, but when you say, “rectification would be applied to the mixed signal”, it sounds like you mean that rectification should be happening after the math is applied to the three signals, and that my unit — which is having producing some negative voltage on the “+” output and vice versa — is not behaving as expected. Is that correct?

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by scragz » Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:08 pm

megarat wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:43 am
I ask because on my Triple Sloth, the rectified outputs don't always provide a voltage that is exclusively either positive or negative. The positive output will generally produce a positive voltage, but it occasionally swings down into the negative range for a bit. Similarly the negative output mostly stays negative, but it occasionally swings up into the positive range for a bit. Is this normal?

If the rectification happens after the arithmetic, then the above shouldn't happen, but if the voltages are rectified prior to the arithmetic, then I could see how this would be expected. Or perhaps something altogether different is going on. Any illumination would be appreciated.
Let's Splosh build guide does mention the difference rectifiers aren't always so simple:
The + outputs are generally above 0V and the – outputs are mostly below 0V, tho not always.
If yours are frequently going all over the place then something is probably wrong but if it's happening rarely then I think it is expected.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by megarat » Fri Dec 25, 2020 8:05 pm

scragz wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 6:08 pm
Let's Splosh build guide does mention the difference rectifiers aren't always so simple:
The + outputs are generally above 0V and the – outputs are mostly below 0V, tho not always.
If yours are frequently going all over the place then something is probably wrong but if it's happening rarely then I think it is expected.
This is great, thanks. I haven’t made a systematic data-collection effort to characterize these outputs, but “The + outputs are generally above 0V and the – outputs are mostly below 0V, tho not always” sounds about right. So I’ll let this lie (my ideal outcome).

UPDATE: actually, upon some further investigation, not all is well with these outputs in my module. Since these two outputs are just rectified versions of the same source, they should reflect that in their behavior. I.e., one will be mostly active while the other is mostly quiescent. But both of them are actively independent of each other, and now that I’m paying more attention to their distributions, they do seem to be all over the place, crossing zero with caprice and impunity. I’ll have to give some thought as to where to go from here. It might be worth getting fixed.

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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by NiteEagle » Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:40 pm

megarat wrote:
Fri Dec 25, 2020 4:22 pm
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond on the holiday. Pardon my electronic naïveté, but when you say, “rectification would be applied to the mixed signal”, it sounds like you mean that rectification should be happening after the math is applied to the three signals, and that my unit — which is having producing some negative voltage on the “+” output and vice versa — is not behaving as expected. Is that correct?
That is correct. The math is applied to all 3 signals and "theoretically" it should never cross zero.

I hooked Sloths - output up to vpme Zeroscope to watch the negative signal and yes it does go up to almost +2V at times. Based on what I saw in the build guide circuit diagram I suspect that the way the circuit was implement could be impacted by the module that the Sloths output is connected. It could behave differently depending on which module is used because of input impedance differences.

I tried a Synthrotek buffered mult and it behaved the same. Negative output of Sloths went positive at times.

I tried a Befaco Dual Attenuverter and it was perfect. The signal never went above 0V.
I set the offset to as near 0V as I could get it and the attenuation to max X+1.

I couldn't try the positive signal as mine is not working. I've never used those before and didn't test them when I built the module.

Experiment with the running the Sloths through a cv mixer, vca, buffered mult or attenuveter. What ever modules of this type that you have to find the one that works the way you are expecting.
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Re: NLC Triple Sloth

Post by megarat » Sat Dec 26, 2020 8:46 pm

Hey, thanks for the extra data, I appreciate the perspective. Both my "+" and "-" outputs are pretty unrestrained, sometimes going as high as 5V for the negative output, and their outputs are clearly independent of each other. In a way, this might be a blessing in disguise, as it might actually be more useful in this capacity: they're two slow randomish outputs, which I can use in anyway that I want, and if I want either of them rectified, I have a CFM BHWR just a few modules away.

I've been using a Mordax Data to evaluate these voltages, but the analysis tools on the Data are a little underpowered, so when I get a moment I hope to use the Levels/Voltmeter feature of the O'Tool Plus to better assess the long-term distribution of the voltages to see if they actually trend in either direction. At the very least, I'd like to better understand what these outputs are producing so I can consider how to use them.

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