stereo mixer module comparison

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by igorrr » Sat May 02, 2020 12:47 pm

2xSAM can be jumpered to 5x gain, which brings line levels to modular amplitude.
http://www.happynerding.com/category/2xsam/

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by NaiveMelody » Sat May 02, 2020 1:10 pm

WMDevices wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:45 pm
WMD Performance Mixer has 12dB of gain per mono channel, stereo channels are unity. The Channels expander has 30dB of gain for low level sources, specifically designed for bringing line level signals in.
The Performance Mixer looks incredible. In my search I’ve focussed on slightly fewer channels and slightly lower cost, but it looks like it does everything I could need. Mmmm...

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by NaiveMelody » Sat May 02, 2020 1:12 pm

igorrr wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:47 pm
2xSAM can be jumpered to 5x gain, which brings line levels to modular amplitude.
http://www.happynerding.com/category/2xsam/
Can the output be set to line level too?

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by igorrr » Sat May 02, 2020 1:25 pm

No, but you can always decrease the level with the knobs.

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by NaiveMelody » Sat May 02, 2020 1:32 pm

igorrr wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 1:25 pm
No, but you can always decrease the level with the knobs.
Cool! I really like it can be connected with other modules for additional functions

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by JES » Sun May 03, 2020 3:42 pm

Greetings. First, a big thank you to mdoudoroff for all the work compiling stereo mixers.

I'm looking for a voltage controlled mixer where I can have at least 3 VC stereo input channels, and 1 pre-fader stereo send/return (more is fine too), or no send but a matrix setup that I could arrange as a send. I don't see anything on the list that does it. I have no problem with a matrix mixer or other multi-brand or mult-module solution. Any suggestions? If I didn't want voltage control, I could link together a couple Intellijel mixups or Happy Nerding 3x stereo mixers, but the "send" mix would be post-fader and there would be no voltage control. If the Frap tools "C" modules were stereo, they could work. I don't really need panning. It does need to mix down to left and right channels.

My dream would be something like Frames but with 4 VC stereo channels and 1-2 pre-fader VC sends. Thoughts?
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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by mdoudoroff » Sun May 03, 2020 3:49 pm

JES, if I understand correctly, then I’m thinking you’re not going to find all that in one package. You’ll have to roll your own combo. Doepfer just posted this guy on MG. It’s not out yet, but may be of interest: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/doepfer-a-135-3

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by JES » Sun May 03, 2020 4:23 pm

Thanks. Yes, that one looks very promising; I’d just need to Jimmy a “send” setup somehow.
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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by mdoudoroff » Sun May 03, 2020 5:16 pm

There are some ambiguities in how you intend to patch and mix all these stereo sources, but here are a few thoughts:

Make Noise X-Pan can be useful as a stereo submixer to send to effects. You can mix up to two stereo sources, or one stereo source and two mono sources. It sports various VCAs.
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/make-noise-x-pan

WMD’s AXYS can be used, amongst other things, as a voltage controlled dry/wet:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/wmd-axys

Knob Farm’s Ferry is a great stereo send/return module, although it won’t submix multiple stereo signals
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/knob-farm-ferry

You could stick a stereo summer at the end to combine the channels and effects returns. Something like this:
https://www.modulargrid.net/e/clank-sum

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by JES » Sun May 03, 2020 5:34 pm

Very head spinny! Will play around with it. The easiest way to think about it is to imagine a 3 channel stereo mixer with 1 stereo aux send/ return (with each channel’s send levels pre-fader) and voltage control over all levels.

For now I may just do it in software, or wait for the Doepfer to show up, and then kludge a send for 3 stereo channels with my Linix and a bunch of mults.
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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by Plurmk » Wed May 13, 2020 12:21 am

NaiveMelody wrote:
Sat May 02, 2020 12:40 pm
Hi,

New to the thread. Really happy it exists and have really been enjoying doudoroff.com - what a brilliant resource.

I’m wondering if there are recommendations for any mixers that are suitable to take inputs from external instruments e.g. other synths?

I currently have a XAOC Sevastopol Input / Output, but would ideally like a mixer that has a stereo in and a stereo out I could use at line level.

Does such a thing exist? I was initially excited by the Roland 531 but the input just takes the signal to the main mix as far as I can see.

The XAOC Praga looks brilliant, but don’t think I could use in the way described?
Actually the Roland 531 routes external signals not into the main mix but into channel 6 for mono inputs or channels 5-6 for stereo inputs. I think it does exactly what you're looking for.

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by NaiveMelody » Wed May 13, 2020 7:18 am

Plurmk wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:21 am


Actually the Roland 531 routes external signals not into the main mix but into channel 6 for mono inputs or channels 5-6 for stereo inputs. I think it does exactly what you're looking for.
When it's mixed ti channels 5 and 6, I wouldn't be able to take that signal direct out and run through the modular though would I? Otherwise would be perfect!

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by Tumulishroomaroom » Wed May 13, 2020 10:45 am

The WMD PM has no problem with line lenel on the channels that have gain knob. If you need stero you need the channels expander. I often plug the output of my Lyra 8 directly into it or in other modules and boost afterwards on the PM. The send return also works great with pedals without the need for any in/out module. Super handy.
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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by Plurmk » Wed May 13, 2020 12:51 pm

NaiveMelody wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 7:18 am
Plurmk wrote:
Wed May 13, 2020 12:21 am


Actually the Roland 531 routes external signals not into the main mix but into channel 6 for mono inputs or channels 5-6 for stereo inputs. I think it does exactly what you're looking for.
When it's mixed ti channels 5 and 6, I wouldn't be able to take that signal direct out and run through the modular though would I? Otherwise would be perfect!
No, you wouldn't. The channels are each mixed into the resulting stereo out of the mixer. The external signals don't have outs separate from the final mix.

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by JES » Wed May 13, 2020 1:29 pm

JES wrote:
Sun May 03, 2020 5:34 pm
Very head spinny! Will play around with it. The easiest way to think about it is to imagine a 3 channel stereo mixer with 1 stereo aux send/ return (with each channel’s send levels pre-fader) and voltage control over all levels.

For now I may just do it in software, or wait for the Doepfer to show up, and then kludge a send for 3 stereo channels with my Linix and a bunch of mults.
Update. Decided to split things up and spread smaller modules around rather than a unified solution. VCA matrix gives me 2 pre-fader sends and VCAs, and then Ladik 17x for mixdown before the computer. Plus mults and attenuators everywhere. When the Doepfers come out I might replace the Ladik for voltage control.
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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by dumbeat » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:53 pm

A little off topic, but can't resist saying:
What im worried about is the deterioration when using ganged micro sub mixers going from one to another and losing just enough fidelity from stage to stage, input to sum bus to input and another sum bus.

So, in my opinion, its always better to use a large, though expensive, mixer that all goes to one summing bus rather than a bunch of ganged small sumbixers.

However, giving up CV Control, Im thinking more and more about getting an SSL X-Desk, which is totally pristine, high headroom, way way beyond any Mackie or A&H and the likes, and certainly more than any Eurorack sized mixer where all compromises must be made to accommodate the format's size and power requirements. 2k+ Used though. But that should be enough for most setups and more.

It has 8+8 inputs and very small footprint, No EQ or any waste of money and real estate.

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by studioutopia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:44 pm

dumbeat wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:53 pm
A little off topic, but can't resist saying:
What im worried about is the deterioration when using ganged micro sub mixers going from one to another and losing just enough fidelity from stage to stage, input to sum bus to input and another sum bus.

So, in my opinion, its always better to use a large, though expensive, mixer that all goes to one summing bus rather than a bunch of ganged small sumbixers.

However, giving up CV Control, Im thinking more and more about getting an SSL X-Desk, which is totally pristine, high headroom, way way beyond any Mackie or A&H and the likes, and certainly more than any Eurorack sized mixer where all compromises must be made to accommodate the format's size and power requirements. 2k+ Used though. But that should be enough for most setups and more.

It has 8+8 inputs and very small footprint, No EQ or any waste of money and real estate.
Or just get Frap Tools CGM. High Headroom. Fantastic saturation when you want it, and wonderfully low noise floor.
- 2 FX Sends (pre- or post-fader), Pan and an VCA per channel ALL with CV control.
- two Stereo returns with CV control.
- Headphone solo/cue bus
- Modular - just keep adding channels...

I considered external mixers as well, but I just didn't want another desktop box in my studio, I wanted CV control over FX and pan, and the VCAs on CGM are so good! The VCAs alone are worth the HP real estate. Each channel module has 4 VCAs in it.
8 channels will run about USD$2k as well, including the Group and Master modules - but for in-the-modular, with all those VCAs - it was worth it to me.

Additional thing to consider with the SSL - You need a pile of D-SUB snake cables - there are no XLR or 1/4" jacks on the back of that thing, except for the 4 AUX main outs.

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by dumbeat » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:07 pm

studioutopia wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:44 pm
dumbeat wrote:
Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:53 pm
A little off topic, but can't resist saying:
What im worried about is the deterioration when using ganged micro sub mixers going from one to another and losing just enough fidelity from stage to stage, input to sum bus to input and another sum bus.

So, in my opinion, its always better to use a large, though expensive, mixer that all goes to one summing bus rather than a bunch of ganged small sumbixers.

However, giving up CV Control, Im thinking more and more about getting an SSL X-Desk, which is totally pristine, high headroom, way way beyond any Mackie or A&H and the likes, and certainly more than any Eurorack sized mixer where all compromises must be made to accommodate the format's size and power requirements. 2k+ Used though. But that should be enough for most setups and more.

It has 8+8 inputs and very small footprint, No EQ or any waste of money and real estate.
Or just get Frap Tools CGM. High Headroom. Fantastic saturation when you want it, and wonderfully low noise floor.
- 2 FX Sends (pre- or post-fader), Pan and an VCA per channel ALL with CV control.
- two Stereo returns with CV control.
- Headphone solo/cue bus
- Modular - just keep adding channels...

I considered external mixers as well, but I just didn't want another desktop box in my studio, I wanted CV control over FX and pan, and the VCAs on CGM are so good! The VCAs alone are worth the HP real estate. Each channel module has 4 VCAs in it.
8 channels will run about USD$2k as well, including the Group and Master modules - but for in-the-modular, with all those VCAs - it was worth it to me.

Additional thing to consider with the SSL - You need a pile of D-SUB snake cables - there are no XLR or 1/4" jacks on the back of that thing, except for the 4 AUX main outs.
Thats a good and interesting advice. Let me ask you, do you think that the CGM can be on par with SSL if same price/feature set as far as channels and sends? Not talking about CV control which is another conversation. Im just wandering if a Mixer's headroom can hold with the Power restrictions of Euro. I know that my Vintage audio gear at the studio works on much higher Voltage where Voltage rails=Headroom.
When you start summing these frequency beasts of synths,in layers, with some good dynamic performance, im not fully confident,

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by studioutopia » Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:54 pm

I'm no expert on Dynamic Range. But here is the voltage range of various audio sginals quoted elsewhere on MW:
-10 dBv (consumer line level) = 0.895v p-p
+4 dBu (pro line level) = 3.473v p-p
normal modular audio level = 10v p-p
peak modular audio level = 20v p-p
(viewtopic.php?t=59409)

My thoughts/assumptions (any Pro audio engineers - correct me if I'm wrong, please) -
The whole idea of having more voltage in reserve is to have the widest space for audio to play between the noise floor of the electronics in the audio path and nearby that would create interferance, and the peak of the signal level of the audio path- this is relative to the signal level of all the equipment working together (from the oscillator to your speakers).
So if you're working at +4dBu level - you have a lot more voltage to play with (3.473V) to get above the noise floor than -10dBv.
I assume the reason we use 10Vpp with Eurorack is that we have a lot of electronics running at 30Vpp DC that is unshielded. This would mean that it inherently has a lot of noise. 10Vpp would give us considerably more dynamic range than +4dBu.
Considering that the CGM Mixer, and any other decent summing amplifier in Eurorack is working at 10Vpp - it theoretically has a much higher dynamic range than most pro studio gear that operates at +4dBu internally. I assume that includes the SSL mixer and most other modern mixers.
Tube gear is different. Tubes are REALLY noisy (plus micrphonics, etc). So running the internals of a tube mic preamp, as an example, might run as high as 500V - and I assume this is only to deal with getting enough dynamic range above that noise floor while processing the signal, before it goes through a transformer to get it down to a level that all the other gear is talking at... +4dBu.
So I would never make an assumption that just because a eurorack mixer runs at 30V DC input voltage vs. any other pro or vintage audio gear runs at is an indication of the capabilities of Dynamic Range.
The only way to gauge this is to determine how good a mixer is at rejecting noise when quiet, and how loud it can go towards the peak signal level that the mixer is operating at without distorting - usually a measurement of Dynamic Range.
---
I can't say how the SSL compares to the Frap CGM. But judging by the ability for my CGM mixer to send a summed signal to my UAD Apollo 8 interface and read as dead silent/non-existent and stay clean all the way beyond the peak abilities of the Apollo, which has a Dynamic Range of 129dB - I'd say the CGM mixer has sufficient dynamic range beyond the capabilities of my interface.
It's a cool subject. What you choose to use always has pros and cons. Hopefully more pros than cons.
That SSL X- desk with a custom made D-SUB to 3.5mm patch bay - with the D-subs in the back of your modular case connecting internally to a 6HP panel with 16 3.5mm jacks - would be AMAZING!!!

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by M78 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:51 pm

@mdoudoroff -- the listing for the ADDAC807 should be updated to say that you can have as many channels as you want (or can fit) because you chain any number of 807C modules together just like the Frap Tools CGM. See https://www.addacsystem.com/contents/pr ... 2_5911.pdf. FWIW, the bottom two modules are mislabelled ADDAC807B in the PDF when really they should be ADDAC807C -- you can see the correct label printed in smaller font in the bottom center portion of the PCB.

Furthermore
  • You can add individual stereo outputs by pairing the 807A+ and 807C+ modules with the 807A and 807C respectively.
  • Signal to noise ratio: about 100dB
  • At the time of the youtube video's showcasing these modules, they used 16+ SSM2164 chips in their modules. Not sure if that's still the case.

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by mdoudoroff » Wed Nov 25, 2020 11:28 am

nonbot wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:51 pm
@mdoudoroff -- the listing for the ADDAC807 should be updated to say that you can have as many channels as you want (or can fit) because you chain any number of 807C modules together just like the Frap Tools CGM.
Thanks! Updated.

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by studio460 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:16 am

I really need a mixer! I was all set on a QU-Bit Mixology, but after seeing this thread, I need to do some more homework. A huge thanks to the OP for that exhaustive list! Now looking at expandable mixers like the Frap Tools' CGM.
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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by mdoudoroff » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:33 am

IMO, the Frap, ADDAC and Befaco options are dubious value propositions unless you have a giant rack and generous budget, or you have a very particular set of requirements one of them happens to fit. Don’t forget to factor in the HP cost and compare with proper outboard mixers that are cheaper and, in many ways, “better” (less compromised by miniaturization to fit 3U).

Another major question is whether you really need all those panning and level VCAs; those are mainly what separate the more expensive from the cheaper.

Also, my experience is that the more channels you have, the more you will use. I thought the WMD PM was total overkill for my needs when I bought it and was wrong.

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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by studio460 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:40 am

mdoudoroff wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:33 am
IMO, the Frap, ADDAC and Befaco options are dubious value propositions unless you have a giant rack and generous budget, or you have a very particular set of requirements one of them happens to fit . . .
The only feature I really want is CV-pan. So the rest, IMO, is gravy (of course multiple-sends is nice to have, but not absolutely necessary). If I only want pan, but a lot of channels (i.e., possibly two mixers), which are some of the ones do you think offer the best value? Detroit Modular is having their 10%-off sale, plus no sales tax to California buyers, so a pretty significant savings. That makes the Mixology only $359 out-the-door.
mdoudoroff wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:33 am
Also, my experience is that the more channels you have, the more you will use. I thought the WMD PM was total overkill for my needs when I bought it and was wrong.
Yes, I do see myself using up a lot of channels, so again, economy is paramount. I know outboard will be cheapest, but the luxury of staying in the rack is something I'd like to retain (plus, no more desk-space).
Last edited by studio460 on Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: stereo mixer module comparison

Post by studio460 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 10:45 am

[Damnit! Hit the damn quote button again!]
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