Paia 4700 DIY

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southphillysynths
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Paia 4700 DIY

Post by southphillysynths » Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:29 pm

Does anyone know if there are kits still being made for these?

OR is there enough documentation out there to reproduce a small system?

I imagine there is enough panel/pcb scans to recreate it all.

I feel a need to add to my backlog :roll:
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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by KSS » Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:48 pm

Definitely no 2700-4700 kits being made by PAIA.

There *is" enough documentation to reproduce a small system.

Are you wanting it for nostalgia? Or other reasons?

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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by southphillysynths » Fri Nov 06, 2020 8:32 am

Just nostalgia, I never had one In the past but remember reading about them in books and online when I first got into modular.

I really like the tiny form factor. I would love to refurbish an old system but it would be hard to find and maybe more work than starting from scratch.
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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by synthcube » Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:43 am

KSS wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:48 pm
Definitely no 2700-4700 kits being made by PAIA.
That is really a shame. we'd offer them via synthCube if they were available!
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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by KSS » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:47 am

Really?
I worked up a bunch of 2700-4700 Frac panels to do a re-issue awhile back. Using red and black anodized nuts instead of the original tip jacks.<--Like bananuts, which didn't exist at the time. Idea was to fit old PAIA circuits into a Frac setup. And remove the need for two different patchcord types, while keeping the distinction between control and audio.

Even worked up a little black and pearl shirt button KBD. Rack-able, with philipine mahogany and orange metal<-natch! as a useful 'throwback' to go with the rest. New KBD circuit though. The original was terrible.

All in a flat tolex "Road Case" since the modules were updated to parallel PCBs, But all system parts definitely carrying the PAIA 70s vibe. If there is any actual interest, I could follow up on the prior work. Since nothing but the circuits are the same, should be no IP issues.

Doing an exact re-issue would need the approval of Scott and Brad at PAIA, I think.

Edit: Here's the 2700 set. The KBD's rack ears here are superimposed over the standalone KBD version. Standard 1U rack module or standalone desktop.
Thee are a few obvious faults in these early workups. the top leftmost knob in the powwr supply and its still backwards an incomplete pot . the boxes do not have openings for labels. For example, "BIAS" is sitting on top the box lines.

edit:Fixed my Greg typo to Brad. Thank you Rob_c
Attachments
PAIA-2720-Button37-1d.JPG
PAIA-2700-Full-Frac.JPG
Last edited by KSS on Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by KSS » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:42 am

Here's an early version of the 4700 set. The grey represents a rack width. John B only used 5 units with 2inch rack ears. But five and a half will fit. That's what's seen here in grey.
The 4/2 Mixer was later expanded to 3 units for more finger room. Some modules show updates and mods that were published in Polyphony magazine over the years. And there's a couple new modules too. Like the attenuating multiples I fitted in for their utility. And one not shown that really takes the system to a whole new level. Hint- Bob moog designed filters using -/+9V too.

The earliest PAIA modules did not use the knurled type knobs we mostly remember for them. They used a 3/4" skirtless moog-style knob that is still available. That's the type assumed for all these panels.
Attachments
PAIA-4700-Set-1a.JPG
Last edited by KSS on Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by Rob_C » Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:19 pm

synthcube wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:43 am
KSS wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 11:48 pm
Definitely no 2700-4700 kits being made by PAIA.
That is really a shame. we'd offer them via synthCube if they were available!
Once again, this is a courtesy reminder that PAIA is still in business and still sells Frac module kits, Frac racks and other products through their website, and provides support and service for what they sell. Clones of the 2700 and 4700 series may be possible but as KSS has noted contacting the owner of PAIA (Brad Martin at North Shore Circuit Design, L.L.P.) is the proper thing to do before offering to sell what is PAIA's design and product.

Someone should contact Brad! Might as well ask if a sufficiently motivated person or party could recreate the 2700/4700 PAIA PCBs and panels and distribute/sell/open-source them in some kind of public/private partnership (as opposed to just making them for your own use). With Hz/v oscillators, no physical compatibility with other formats, and a somewhat lower-fi design, whether anyone (beyond a few system restorers) would buy them is unknown. But it could be done as a labor of love or just because. I think it could have some success as open source where you send away the Gerbers and make your own panels or purchase a PCB/panel kit.

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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by KSS » Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:33 am

I already addressed both the legal and the ethical in my reply. And in the design. The layouts I shared are not subject to PAIAs approval legally -outside of the word PAIA on them here which has been changed, and since the circuits are updated for modern components, and panel geometry changed they're both legally covered too. PCBs are not the same. Jacks are not the same. The sounds, control feel and ranges and operation *are*.

The words "PAIA" on the layout shared above were removed from later revs and say "APIA". I uploaded a replacement jpg without their name.

All of which adds up to the product the shared layout above represents is not "PAIAs design and product."

Of course, none of that changes that it's polite to talk to new company owners of old designer's work to get a feel and chat about the plans. And I would never do anything that might harm Scott's job. He's been one of the best and longest supporting members of SDIY. But I doubt he would look forward to supporting your open source version of John S's old designs. And you know it *would* fall to him if the old look and size were re-introduced! He already has to chooses to! deal with that for actual PAIA supplied vintage products.

As to "no physical compatibility" you may have missed that the design I shared is fully physically compatible with an existing Frac system. Still linear Hz/V but there's a module to address that which wasn't shared. Like the other one I did hint at. Levels needs to be translated but that's also been addressed in the design. Like I said, it was meant to allow the old 27/4700 and new Frac PAIA to co-exist. Back when I laid this out the new version of PAIA seemed to be floundering and I thought connecting old and new could help them increase their business.

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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by Rob_C » Sun Nov 08, 2020 9:33 am

My comments were intended for synthCube, and not directed at KSS or his design. At all. I made that clear as mud. Apologies to KSS.

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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by synthcube » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:54 am

Its a good discussion all-- my only point in the prior post was that we would, if possible to arrange, love to offer PAIA kits via our store synthCube... so if they chose to take up those designs again we would talk with them about any interest in selling them to us... that's all :)
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Re: Paia 4700 DIY

Post by synthcube » Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:56 am

synthcube wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 11:54 am
Its a good discussion all-- my only point in the prior post was that we would, if possible to arrange, love to offer PAIA kits via our store synthCube... so if they chose to take up those designs again we would talk with them about any interest in selling them to us... that's all :)
More broadly, anything we can do to help support and promote PAIA we would--- long time fans, and consistent with our belief that the world needs more Frac :)
facebook: https://www.facebook.com/2SynthCube

synthcube webstore www.synthcube.com/cart
music from outer space: www.musicfromouterspace.com
blacet research: www.blacet.com
MOTM DIY Analog Synthesizers: www.motmsynthesizers.com
music from outer space euro smt: www.mfoseuro.com

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